Is Staying Selfless, or Are You Just Afraid to Leave?

Samantha Fox: From day one, we are told who we should be, how to live, and what's acceptable. Before we even have a chance to discover ourselves, our society has already drawn those lines for us. But what happens when those lines are keeping us from knowing and embracing who we truly are? Welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, a podcast about unpacking and unlearning everything that's kept you from living as your true self. Through honest conversations about your internal emotional landscape, sexuality, coming out later in life, relationships, and the journey to self-acceptance, we break free from the boxes we never chose. Today on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, I am joined by a woman named Tina. Tina reached out to me two months ago and decided to join my Beyond Straight community and also to enroll in the Unbox Your Sexuality program. After a couple of years of therapy and really struggling with feelings of needing to fix herself, needing to fix her marriage. feeling misunderstood in some ways by her therapist and just really wanting somebody to help her do the deeper work so that she could connect to what was fully authentic for her. After a short two months of being in community with other women in some stage of this journey of curiosity or starting to come into their sexuality, fully coming out, being out and navigating marriages or divorces, Tina has stepped into herself in a way that I found remarkable. And today I have Tina on to share some of her story with you. Thanks for being here. Hello and welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. Today my guest is Tina, and I'm so glad to have you on. Tina, I'm excited to have a really interesting conversation about just the arc of your coming out process, I would say. So welcome to the show.

Tina Anderson: Thank you. I am so honored to be here.

Samantha Fox: Aw. So yeah, so tell me tell the audience a little bit about your journey and how you landed where you are now. But let's go back in time a little bit. So how long have you been kind of grappling with your sexuality or starting to connect to it in a way that felt real?

Tina Anderson: For many years I have been dissociating from sex with my husband by fantasizing about women and I dealt with this in secret for a long time. I tried talking to my therapist about it and he would say, Maybe you're by. and quickly brush past that and move into what was wrong with me or my marriage that was making sex uncomfortable, why I had this need to dissociate and

Samantha Fox: fantasize about women, which he knew,

Tina Anderson: Right. He did. I was honest about that. And this for a long time kept me stuck in a place of thinking that I needed to either fix myself or my marriage in order to have a happy sex life with my husband. And

Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm.

Tina Anderson: even when my relationship with my husband improved, as it did over the years, we've been married now for fifteen years. The Resistance to sex grew and grew. I was having to overcome a lot of internal resistance to be intimate with my husband. And he's a great guy. we've got a great marriage. We've got two kids. They're 15 and 11. And I just for such a long time was stuck in this place of how do I fix myself. And why is this happening? And I think deep down I knew that really my entire life I had not experienced true sexual arousal and attraction to a man. I didn't enjoy sex with men. but I didn't trust my fantasies. I didn't know that they could be an a a true indication that maybe I wasn't straight. So finally my my sister-in-law, I told her about these fantasies during sex, and she said, honey, you're gay. And I I think that really hit me.

Samantha Fox: Is that your husband's sister?

Tina Anderson: It is. she lives a more alternative lifestyle. you know, she's dated men who are married but in ethically non-monogamous relationships. And so you know, she she was a safe person to talk to. And my husband and I, we opened our marriage a couple of years ago. And at the time I all I knew was I needed to take a break from sex. I I told him, Maybe I'm gay or maybe I just, you know, I have this childhood trauma I have to work through, or, you know, I just need to learn how to relax more and be more sensual. and neither of us really dated. we stayed stuck in that place for a long time where we both thought like maybe I would fix myself. A break would do me good. And and so neither of us really dated seriously. And

Samantha Fox: There was no sex, no you guys weren't sexually intimate with each other or with anybody else.

Tina Anderson: right, essentially. Like I would occasionally try to have sex and just be right back in that place where I wasn't listening to my body. my body didn't want anything to do with this. but it had been about a year finally when I had this conversation with my sister in law. and then another conversation with like a group of friends who I I essentially know online via Marco Polo and I I told them too I was I was in this open marriage, but I was still having a lot of guilt about not having sex with my husband and thought maybe I was gay. And also that coming out really started to you know, really solidify for me this. this potential and then over the years I had always gone online and Googled a bit trying to find like lesbian community and then it never went anywhere, but finally I found your website and your podcast and started learning about compulsory heterosexuality and hearing other women's stories that I I really related to. questioning my lifetime of what I thought was being attracted to men. and I think trusting my pull towards a homosexual lifestyle and my fantasies more. and really my just giving my desires and my my vision for what I wanted in my my life more weight. I stopped being so afraid of hurting my husband. I started realizing that I was hurting him by keeping us both stuck in this with this hope that one day we would have a happy sex life again and started to be more honest with him. I I finally told him like This is becoming real for me. and I'm I'm starting to get scared. I'm starting to think it might mean that our relationship will not last our whole lifetime. as a heteromarried couple, obviously we'll be connected forever. but and and I and that was really helpful for him too. it was the turning point for our starting on this at times painful and scary path, where we we both know that we may not f you know, find lifelong partners again. We may risk being financially unstable as a result of living separately, but but I think I think both of us are much happier now. even with the potential risks that may come with seeing other people and you know being ethically non monogamous at least at least for now, for the next several several years is our our current plan.

Samantha Fox: Wow. I love that story and you know, I'm always so deeply moved by the ability for this kind of friendship between partners at a moment like this where, you know, you're able to share and it it could be the other direction too, right? Like a gay man sharing with his wife that he's gay. and just for this, understanding. I'm curious if there was any kind of like explosiveness to it or like fighting or if it w if it just unfolded in this way where you guys just had these honest conversations and came to this realization and and were able to kind of honor, you know, each other.

Tina Anderson: We didn't fight, but there there was a period afterwards when my husband was depressed. he's been divorced before and I I know really doesn't want to go through that again. and he through this process has finally also found a a therapist. So that has been helpful. And there was and still will be a grieving process. But but luckily for whatever reason I was I was blessed with a partner who didn't have anger. I I think he he gets angry when I start to beat myself up because occasionally I'll have a hard day and I'll I'll say like I've I've ruined I've ruined everything and he gets really emotional and he'll get sad that I I am doing that to myself, you know, blaming myself again, slipping back into that old habit of thinking this is this is my fault, this this is something I did, a failure on my part. And s switching out of that mindset of I need to fix myself, is is really I think what has helped me to be brave enough to to share this and to tell my husband, like I I may have to take a different path I I call it clearing the decks for my big gay life. like

Samantha Fox: Love it.

Tina Anderson: I I I know that I need to make some changes to really open myself up to the possibility of living this out life and building a community.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, so when we met, which is not that long ago, right? Because now it's July and I I believe you reached out to me toward the end of May. when I look back, it it's not that long. And I think that when you first reached out to me, you were still seeing this therapist.

Tina Anderson: I was and I had a difficult conversation with him where I I said I I feel v very stuck and I feel like you you haven't really taken the time to explore with me this the possibility that I'm I'm gay and would turn the conversation back to what's wrong with me or my marriage. And he he at first was a bit defensive. the next time we met, he he actually said he was excited for me that I was I was going on this journey and understood that I need to go on this journey with with different support, with somebody who was really grounded in somebody overcoming compulsory heterosexuality. And that's when I joined the Beyond Straight group that you offer which has been such an incredible resource. It's such a supportive place. Everyone's at different stages in in their journey and completely accepting of that. And I've learned so much and really grown to have a deep affection for the women in the group. In a very short amount of time as you mentioned. I've I'm also working with you in your unbox your sexuality program, which has been extremely helpful for me. I've really enjoyed like I've learned so much about myself from the the journaling and the meditation. and such an important part of my journey has been really learning how to listen to my my body and what my body wants. And I think as I think women are taught to ignore those signals. I'm also at your recommendation reading the book Pussy. I wanted to give a quick shout out to that because I love this notion that our power is really grounded in our sensuality and our and pleasure.

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Tina Anderson: and I have just really noticed how when I I started listening to your podcast and hearing women's stories about living a gay life and I would have this feeling in my body of like lightness and expansiveness and it was such a wonderful feeling. And then the doubt and uncertainty and the questioning of like, am I really gay and I need to figure figure all this out would like bring me crashing back to earth. I noticed that I felt like Just more comfortable moving around the world. I think I used to sort of like brace myself for my husband's touch. And now I I was standing up straighter. I was being more forgiving of myself. And I I also went onto a website called OutCare, and I found there I found a local therapist who specializes in women coming out later in life. And she has she has been just like so incredible. The combination of your program, your podcast, and seeing a new therapist has I feel like I made more progress in the last two months than I did during ten years of therapy.

Samantha Fox: I love that I say it's like five years of therapy condensed into a program that like you can't really get the same thing out of even working with me one on one, you're not gonna get the same thing out of that that you're gonna get out of this program that is built through working with women and all the things I learned that women are going through. it's all there in the program. And it's just like, I don't think people understand what an intensely deep dive this program is into yourself. and of course it's what you put into it, is what you get out of it. But I'm so thrilled. I mean, I've been, you know, kind of noticing through your work and then, you know, in the community. I remember when you joined Beyond Straight. and you know, it felt like, God, like I don't you know, I'm in a I'm in a group. It's not a big group, right? But I'm in a group and it's you know, I don't love being in a group. I don't love speaking in a group, you know, and and for some women it's a little bit tough being there, but just watching your blossoming over such a short period of time. two months, I mean huge transition. There is just no way for this to happen. when you don't have this like petri dish that you're in, you know, where you've got the women, you've got all the different experiences, you've got the support and you've got the program. and then you've got support also of your own on the outside, which is amazing. I love all of that for you. and the conversations are so rich inside of the community. And we recently were having a conversation about This woman who had reached out to me about a month ago through social media and she had only ever been with women up until the age of twenty-four. And then she married a man at twenty-four. She found a good man, a perfect man for for marrying. w and honestly had never even been with men, but she was like, Okay, I'm 24. Now's a time where I'm supposed to get married, right? Which I I relate to because I I kind of not that I was with women before, but I kind of had that same mindset of like, okay, like I've done all the things, now it's time to just do the thing I have to. and has been married to this amazing man for 16 years and I think had one or two children, and she wrote to me and just said, how do I know I'm gonna be happier? And I'm trying so hard to stop thinking about women because he's I mean, he's hot. Like he's a great looking guy. He's also an amazing father, he's an amazing partner, he loves me so much. We have such a beautiful life. We've built this beautiful life and family. And all I want to do is stop thinking about women, but I cannot stop. And it feels so selfish. And I'm beating myself up because why can't I love him the way he loves me? Just because he's a man? Like just because of gender? I mean, shouldn't I be able to rise above gender? And is this just about sex? You know, like, that is the reason I'm gonna let go of all of this is for sex, right? So this woman wrote in and we ended up having a conversation in our community about this. And you know, it really is one of the one of the biggest sticking points, I have to say. This is not uncommon. Like this woman was very you know, transparent in what she was feeling, but I hear this a lot from women. You know, how do I know I'm gonna be happier? How do I know I'm not gonna end up alone? this feels very selfish. And when we were talking about in the community, I really loved your response to that. And I would love for you to share that just because it moved me so deeply and I was just like, clapping on the inside, you know, and cheering. so yeah, tell me what came up for you around that whole topic.

Tina Anderson: Sure. Well, going back to the idea of pleasure and sensuality being so central to our power and our ex you know, our our just journey in this world, it is so important and it makes me sad that anyone would think that pursuing that deep longing that this person is experiencing, so much so that they're reaching out to you to try to figure it out. that they would they would say that was selfish is is is sad, I think. but also just the result of society telling us that that pursuing our own pleasure and desires is selfish. you know, sure put people first at times when it's the right thing to do, but we have to trust our knowing and our thought process around what we truly want. and The notion that we are being unselfish by staying and a marriage that doesn't feel authentic and a life that doesn't feel fulfilling and authentic for us is is not kindness. It's not the the way that marriage should work. I think we have to share our deepest longings and anxieties with our partner. And be honest with them, you know, that that woman is not fully invested in in a marriage. She may think she's doing the right thing by forcing herself to to play really a r a role that doesn't feel authentic to her. But I don't I don't think anyone wants to be in a marriage where somebody is not one hundred percent in and and feeling fulfilled. I think that also this thought that I'm being selfish and how do I make this go away and sex doesn't matter. It's a way of gaslighting ourselves into thinking, you know, these thoughts I'm having are wrong and I need to make them go away. in in terms of being alone. or causing pain, I I think that that is just part of part of the journey. We have to take those risks in order to set ourselves up for an authentic life where we're honest with ourselves and pursuing our truth. I think anything else is a death sentence. I I f I honestly now that I'm on the other side of that kind of thinking am more afraid of not living an authentic life than I am of causing causing short term pain, you know, to my my husband and my children. because I I honestly believe that this path will lead to everyone being happier and more fulfilled. And if I if I end up lonely, you know, I I hope that's the kick in the ass I need to like go out and build gay community or or or some kind of community. I'm no stranger to having to overcome social anxiety in order to surround myself by like minded people. So it's that'll just be part of part of the the journey, I think. but I've also never been the kind of person who like waited around for another partner to come along before I ended a relationship that didn't feel right to me. Like it might have taken me a while to get to that point of ending the relationship. But to me the the pain and the like lifelong depression and anxiety that would result from staying in a relationship that that didn't fulfill my desires and my vision for what I wanted in life. I love the German saying better horrible ending than an unending horror. And my marriage was not a horror by an an unending horror by any stretch of the imagination. But that's also what makes it so difficult to be honest with ourselves. Like everything you said about that woman's husband and life being wonderful, same. but I didn't feel wonderful. I was very depressed and and anxious and I wasn't being honest with myself. You know, people ask that question like try to picture what you want in life if everyone else's desires didn't matter. and I knew that it was not

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Tina Anderson: the path that I was on. I experienced longing for a long term relationship partnership with a with a woman, I wasn't willing to admit it to myself because of that fear of causing my husband pain, but I was causing him pain. I was afraid, we were both a afraid to really take that leap.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, I mean it's really you know, I say f not for the faint of heart, and also does take courage and bravery. and I think it it it can be such a rabbit hole because of what we've learned and because of how we're conditioned to take care of other people's emotions really before our own. You know, it's like, well, I don't want to hurt him and I'm gonna ruin his life and what's gonna happen to him and how is he ever gonna recover? So I'm gonna just keep repressing this and shutting this down. And then the more you're doing that, the more disconnected you're becoming from yourself and what you're feeling, the more disconnected you're becoming from the relationship, the more you're starting to suffer with depression or anxiety or. maybe you've developed some addictive patterns to help you cope with these feelings that you're pushing down. And so all of this coming from what you've learned, which is you're meant to be, you know, selfless, meaning putting everybody else's needs before your own, now has created this huge mess where you're disconnected from yourself. You're not really connected in your partnership. And, you know, you're starting to have mental health issues, you're starting to have autoimmune issues. I mean, I've seen all of this. it's so layered. And I mean, that's really what the program is about. But it's like the layers of what we have learned, whether it's coming from compulsory heterosexuality, homophobia, and internalized homophobia, or it's coming from people pleasing and the need to keep everybody else happy. It all kind of just does this dance with the other parts to create this, like, muddy, thick mess that it's hard to really hard to climb out of. Like it's really hard to pull yourself up and out of all of that. And especially when you add in. You know, a mental health professional that you're working with who is not bringing to you, like, have you ever thought about the possibility that you might be gay? Like, what a simple question. But instead, it's like, well, let's look at what's going on in your marriage and, you know, let's look at your history and how your history is creating these fantasies, you know, that you're having because X, and Z happen to you. I mean, it's like, my gosh, you know, it's just perpetuating all of the conditioning. So yeah, you know, for anybody listening in, like if that's the direction that your therapy is going, you must exit that therapy, you know, and find somebody who can really go to these places with you.

Tina Anderson: Yeah. A absolutely. And this has been s such a journey. There have been so many ups and downs, so many times when I've said to myself, this is too scary. I I've spent a lot of time trying to justify and really figure out my sexuality. And I think without the Unboxed Your Sexuality program and without you and the podcast and Beyond Straight, I would have probably spent another, you know, fifteen, twenty five l the rest of my lifetime stuck in that place of I can f I can fix this. I can I can ignore this. or this isn't real. you know, and hearing other women's stories, learning about compulsory heterosexuality and all of the things. the compulsory femininity and people pleasing and

Samantha Fox: Misogyny, martyrdom.

Tina Anderson: yes, absolutely. All of those, you're you're correct. all of those things are really conspiring to push you down and keep you stuck. And without the group and all of the work around that, I couldn't have moved through it on my own. and definitely not with my my old therapist who I I think at the end of the day was just as afraid as I was of ending ending my marriage or putting it in a place where it had the potential to end. And I still don't know exactly where I'm going on this journey. I haven't figured out, you know, I haven't started dating. And and I and I'm okay with that because that that uncertainty really does something to your brain where it's like, let's you know, let's let's ignore all of this. It's too scary and painful and go back to what's safe and comfortable. And so yeah, it's been really great to have your support along the way.

Samantha Fox: yes. I love watching you grow and it's like a transformation before my eyes, which is so nourishing for me. you know, after a lifetime of putting all of my work into that, when I see somebody like you flourishing in this way, it's like, I get all the feels. and as far as the uncertainty goes and dating and not knowing what's gonna happen and how terrifying that is, I mean, yeah, you know, our brains like to know things, right? Whatever we can know, it's kind of helpful for our emotional system. To have that knowledge because there is so much uncertainty in this journey that we're on of just life, right? Of just living in this human body for this time that we're here. There's so much uncertainty that if we can know something, it's it's like reassuring and it's calming in some way. And I think that's why. compulsory heterosexuality is so genius, right? Because they get right in there with our deepest human flaws in our emotional system, which is that it's uncomfortable living in uncertainty. And they get right in there and they give us something. Certain. They sell us something certain, which is if you just do this path, you're going to have XYZ, and you never have to worry about it again. It's all going to be laid out. You're going to do these, check these boxes, do these steps, and down the path you go, and you know exactly where you're going to end up, which is so reassuring. I mean, why would people not want to do that with this nervous system that we have? Like having that certainty is so reassuring. But the truth is, is that that's a false package because even when you do all that, there still is no certainty. And people don't want to to believe that and they hold on, you know, that's where the gaslighting comes from. And, not believing What you're feeling because it's like, I picked this path because I knew what it was gonna be, and it's meant to be that, and it has to be that, and I have to hold on to that. And this idea of something changing and the uncertainty is so terribly uncomfortable for us. and really it's like one of the only truths is that life is uncertain. Things can happen from one minute to the next that change the course of our lives. And how can we not accept that that that is true? Right? So getting comfortable with uncertainty is just so huge. I was terrified when I realized I was gay. Just terrified. And I remember reading Pemishadron's Comfortable with Uncertainty. I just didn't know what to do with the uncertainty. and yeah, I hear you when you say, like, I don't know what's next, you know, and even for me, I don't even know what's next for me. You know what I mean?

Tina Anderson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well I I love your story, Samantha, because I feel I feel very lucky to be, you know, in in a supportive marriage, and financially independent, but you you really had to overcome that you know, a r a rocky end to your marriage, becoming financially independent. And I don't want to minimize, you know, how difficult the decision to move on can be for some some women and that there is a great deal of loss and grief involved involved in it. But I I think you you illustrate better than a lot of people how it's essential, you know, that like you said at least if we're going to live these lives that are like rife with uncertainty and pain you know that we do it in a way that is aligned with ourselves that feels authentic and hopeful. instead of putting ourselves in cages and people think that staying in an unhappy marriage is virtuous. And of course marriage is hard and painful and you're unhappy. Like but you're going to end up in a place where you're not dying alone and you know you'll be you'll be safe and people will will admire you because you stuck it out for, you know, however many decades. There's no prize for staying in an unhappy marriage.

Samantha Fox: Really there isn't. my gosh. Yes. Cheers to that. I wanted to go back to one thing about the the the book Pussy, a reclamation. and you know, how reading it was really showing you how much power is connected to our sensuality. and I mean, essentially the whole book is like it's connected to your pussy. You know, like all of your power is coming from there. And when you actually are able to connect to what that that power is, I think it's like the biggest. power that a human can have. and I really think that because we are such powerful beings, even though today in today's world that has been stripped from us because of the heteropatriarchy in so many ways, that it's because we have that power that they stripped us of our power.

Tina Anderson: Mm. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: So, you know, like if like if they had never stripped us of that power, we would be in charge of the whole fucking world. I mean, really,

Tina Anderson: Yes.

Samantha Fox: we would. And and the world would not look like what it looks like today. But because the men got together, you know, white cis men got together to strip us of, you know, what they called our like. witch power, you know, witchcraft and whatnot. But it is actually our innate power that we are born with. That is what we have when you're born female, you know. they stripped us and really stripped us down to the point where we don't even trust what we feel. We have signs coming in and giving us really strong messages and we gaslight ourselves over it. And so whatever route you choose to reconnect to yourself, it is just so essential. I mean, honestly, like the world needs it. we need woman power right now. so yeah, that just was one other thing that you were talking about that really struck me.

Tina Anderson: Absolutely. the book Pussy is a is a journey in it in its own right. I'm really trying to pay attention to the parts where it makes me uncomfortable and lean into that because there is so much conditioning around hiding our sexuality, denying our pleasure, serving men. And I think as a culture, you're absolutely right. We've forgotten that the the power that we have and what makes women so exceptional. And that there there's so much to unlearn in this journey. And again, l the Unbox Your Sexuality program is so helpful because it takes you step by step through all of the mud of the the the patriarchy and all of the things that are are oppressing that power. So I'm I am in enjoying the book and with all of your work, it there's so much to learn. I really appreciate it.

Samantha Fox: Well, it's been such a joy having you on. I just wanna ask if there's anything that you would say to somebody who's where you were, you know, in the last couple of years where, you were trying to push it back down and trying to fix yourself What would you share?

Tina Anderson: absolutely. it's not a straightforward process. I think that we are letting go of that notion that we're broken and that we have to to fix ourselves and just recognizing that y you are powerful and you're a a beautiful being who may be different, you know, may have to go against the grain, may have to make people sad and uncomfortable sometimes in order to really step into your honest truth. I think it's so im important. It's our life's work and it is really the only way to live. Otherwise we might as well just throw in the towel now. Why why why go on this scary and crazy and beautiful journey in in a way that serves others and doesn't serve our ourselves and our our inner knowing.

Samantha Fox: Yes to that. Thank you.

Tina Anderson: Well I'm so glad and I'm so grateful for this time.

Samantha Fox: I'm so thrilled for you and I love watching you unfold more and more into yourself every day. Thanks for being here.

Tina Anderson: Thanks. Keep

Samantha Fox: Thanks, Tina.

Tina Anderson: keep fighting the good fight.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, you got that. Thank you for spending this time with me on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps more folks find these conversations. If you're ready to unbox from something that's keeping you stuck, I would love to support you. You can find the application to the show at unboxyoursexuality.com. Let's stay connected. Find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at lesbiancuriositycoach. Give me a follow and join the conversation. Remember, we only have this one time through. Why not unbox yourself and let your true self shine in all its beautiful glory?