"What If It's the Best Thing That Ever Happened?"

0:00 From day one, we are told who we should be, how to live, and what's acceptable. Before we even have a chance to discover ourselves, our society has already drawn those lines for us. But what happens when those lines are keeping us from knowing and embracing who we truly are? Welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, a podcast about unpacking and unlearning everything that's kept you from living as your true self. Through honest conversations about your internal emotional landscape, sexuality, coming out later in life, relationships, and the journey to self-acceptance, we break free from the boxes we never chose.

0:51 I'm hopping on before the main show begins to share with you that I am so deeply moved by this episode. This might be my most favorite episode. I would love to hear from you if this episode gave you any feelings of reassurance, or if you learned something new or thought about something different after listening in to a conversation between me and my first two clients as a sexuality coach back in 2021, who are here to share their story as we talk about what about the kids? What about the kids? For those of you that resonate and are looking for how to take that first baby step forward, please check out my website, UnboxYourSexuality.com, or set up a discovery call with me.

1:48 You can email me at Samantha at UnboxYourSexuality.com. Let's hop on a 15-minute call and find out what that one baby step can be for you. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as we all enjoyed recording it for you. Thanks so much for being here. Hello and welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. I am very excited to be here today with two very special guests, two women that have worked with me and gone through the Unbox Your Sexuality program and have come out later in life. Today, we are here to talk about something I hear so many women fretting about when they are starting to come into the realization that they are gay later in life.

2:39 This is after you've been married for quite some time and you have children. They might be elementary school age, they might be middle school, high school, or they might even be adults. But something I hear over and over is just the amount of terror that women feel when they are considering having to tell their children that they are not straight and that, in fact, they're gay. And most of the time that they're going to be separating or divorcing and leaving their relationship. So today we are here to talk about what about the kids.

3:23 This is such an important topic. And I'd love for my guests to introduce themselves just to give you a little bit of background about where they are and the ages of their kids. We represent all the ages of the kids here, but I'm going to let them start. So Rebecca, welcome. thanks for being here. Would you share a little bit just about your story and your kids' ages and whatnot? Absolutely. Thanks so much, Sam. And so happy to be here with Trish, especially since we started working together, gosh, I guess that was almost five years, or four and a half years ago.

4:01 I was married to my husband for almost 18 years. Had a good marriage. I always knew since I was 13 that I had an attraction to women, One that I think I denied pretty much consistently, but would, you know, have these feelings that would pop up with someone I met or someone that was on my soccer team in college or a colleague. And I would become very, very confused about those feelings. So I kind of really wasn't able to ever face that for years and years and years. It was something that I was in denial about.

4:33 Up until 2021, the pandemic had been in full swing by this point. And I think just that closing off from the world made me do a lot of self-reflection and say, can I continue to live like this? Can I continue to kind of do this to my husband? Because we didn't have a super intimate relationship. It was, you know, we were great friends and business partners, you know, at our best. Our kids were 16 and 14 at the time when I, for the first time, admitted to myself that I was gay. I hadn't ever done that in therapy.

5:08 It just got to a point where I couldn't deny it any longer. It was just, I was raising kids and trying to tell them and teach them how to be themselves, and I was not living authentically. So I had that moment. I came out to my younger brother, who's five years younger, and an unbelievable support system for me and my kids. And I first said those words to him that I'm gay. And I said he loved me and was super supportive. But I said, how can I do this to my kids? Like, it is so selfish. How can I do this to my kids?

5:37 And he changed my entire mindset with one response. And he said, what if it's the best thing that's ever happened to all of you? And four years, five years almost of hard work and just trying to be there for my kids and understand that they were going to have to go through their own process. And my ex-husband, really thankful to say that we got through the messy middle and we are all leading thriving lives in a lot of ways. And so my kids are 20 and 18. They had a lot of struggles that I didn't know about.

6:09 They were also teenagers going through their own stuff that had nothing to do with dad and I. And so I started working with Sam in 2021, who is super helpful. I wanted to, you know, work with someone who had done this before, because until you can look your kids in the eye and tell them that you're gay and you're getting divorced, if you've never done that before, you really can't understand the impact of what you're about to do and what you're taking on. And so that's how I found Sam and found everything that she guided me through.

6:38 And then working with Trish through the group at the same time, you really can't understand what it means and the direction and the guidance that you are given. And you can't totally trust it until it comes from someone, I think, who has actually walked this walk before. And so, Sam, that's how unbelievably appreciative and, you know, thankful I am for what you do and the role that you fill for so many of us that are out there. I know I could not have done it without your guidance. And I always go back to Glennon Doyle's book, Untamed With This.

7:09 And she says she got a thank you note from one of her friends who thanked her for never giving directions to a place she'd never been. And I always go back to that and say that that's really how I found Sam. And I so double down on that when it comes to your kids. It's when you're a mom and you go through this, it's a different level. So thank you. Thanks so much, Rebecca. So true. OK, Trish, can you share a little bit for everybody? Yeah. So I have such a similar story to Rebecca and it just blows me away.

7:41 I was speaking to somebody else last night who was a late coming out person as well. And, you know, for so long, I felt I was the only one having these questions. I was the only one who chose to get married when I wasn't sure if I was gay or straight. I didn't know, but I knew I was questioning. And I just wanted to have a family and kids so bad. And I did not want to be gay so bad. And because of how I had been enculturated to see gayness and how queerness was dealt with in my formative years in the 70s and 80s and 90s and still in the 2000s.

8:28 I mean, it's getting better, but so slowly. so um when when I actually had the courage in 2021 to come out uh my kids were 27 and 30 I I told my husband I was gay at 33 and we decided to stay together he went into denial about it I went in to just push it down I we discussed it again at 44 I can't it was like for him that I I'd never told him at 33. And so that tells you the amount of denial he went into about it to to just like keep on keeping on. Because again, as Rebecca said, we were good partners in life.

9:09 We were good parents together. And when I told him again at 44, our kids were like high school and university age. And we went to therapy a second time and decided to stay together again. It wasn't until they're 27 and 30 and both left home and COVID happened. And I finally had the quiet to say, what does Trish really want in this world instead of making everybody else happy and making sure life is okay for everybody else? Like, would I want my kids to live what I'm living, suppressing this piece of you that is so sacred?

9:45 And the answer was like, finally, hell no, I wouldn't want that for my kids. And why am I accepting it for myself? And so that's when I also searched out Sam and I knew I was going to come out at that point. And I wanted somebody like Rebecca said to be there who had experienced it to help guide me in a way that I could do that as intentionally and carefully as possible to make sure the kids were all right, could handle it as well as possible. It's a difficult situation. Everybody is going to struggle with it.

10:19 There's no way to avoid it or fully protect them from it. But through having your guidance from your therapist point of view and from your life perspective point of view, I really feel like I did it in the healthiest way possible. And I feel like that's witnessed by the fact that now three, four years later, My kids like embrace me. They embrace every part of me, every story that I told myself of why it wouldn't be OK and what I had to worry about that they. They wouldn't be OK with me coming out, that my husband, you know, it would blow up our friendship, long term loving relationship of 30 years.

11:01 None of those things have come true. And to just piggyback on Rebecca said, she was so lucky that her brother said to her, what instead of the worst case scenario, this is going to blow up my life. What if it's the best thing that ever happened to you and the kids? And it's so much about being able to make space to tell yourself a different story. And like as much as you want to catastrophize about how poorly it could turn out, I think Rebecca and I are here to say, it freaking turned out incredible.

11:37 You know, yes, there was bumps on the road, but where we are at now, the way our kids have had a chance to evolve and experience and rebound or develop resilience through this and the way they see me as a whole person now and a role model for how you can choose to live your life in a different way when you get outside of the fear and embrace what's possible and how important it is to be your core self is just mind-blowing for me. And I hope that by coming on here today, we're going to show people through our actions and stories that another story is possible.

12:18 And hopefully they can think for themselves what Rebecca's brother offered that what's the opposite of it blowing up my life. What is the best case scenario that could come out of this? Thank you. Thanks so much, Trish. So moving listening to both of you. And also so interesting because I'm reflecting also on my story, which feels so different from your stories and how I was married for six and a half years and I had three kids that were five-year-old twins and a two-year-old. How also interesting it that at these times of like such great tragedy and like collective trauma, these are moments where there are waves of people coming out.

13:02 So for me, it was 9-11. And that was the thing that just got me feeling like, my gosh, I could be gone tomorrow. And it wasn't even really conscious. So for you guys, there was this conscious awareness, like both of you knew that you were gay or had these feelings, like they were there for you and you were contending with them over many years of your life, where I had awarenesses that came up, but they never rose to like really full consciousness. Even though I would write them down, they were in my journal.

13:38 Even on my honeymoon, I wrote in my journal, I feel like I'm supposed to be here with a woman. And, but I didn't even know I wrote that. Like when I went back many years later, I was like, my God, I'm on my honeymoon and this is what I'm writing in my journal. This is crazy. So I spent many years just not letting the feelings rise to consciousness. And instead, for me, it was a catalyst. It was somebody, it was 9-11. So for you guys, it was that COVID time, right? For me, it was like 9-11 woke me up and then meeting somebody that just blew everything up for me.

14:13 My kids were also really young. So, you know, what do you say to kids that are five and two? They don't know what gay is, right? So for my kids and for my experience, it was really different because it's kind of the only way they've ever known me in terms of their memory, right? I've always been gay. But the divorce piece, of course, is very difficult. That was the more difficult part with their ages was just going through a divorce and then having to co-parent for so many years. with that added piece of being gay, which created more tension between me and my ex-husband and, you know, and the kids having to live through that for all of those years.

14:55 But at the same time, they made it through. And, you know, we have a beautiful connection and, you know, they're just, yeah, my mom's a lesbian. It's like breathing for them. So let's get into a little bit of what it felt like to come out to kids. I'm going to ask you, Rebecca, to start at that time where you were starting to come to terms with this. Like, what was your biggest fear about sharing this with your kids? This is an easy answer for me. And I still find myself going back to this in moments that I think it was I was blowing up.

15:34 What I learned was my belief of what a family looks like. Like it was like all of a sudden I'm I'm almost like destroying what a family like is supposed to look like. Like I'm ruining my kids experience of a family is what I was most terrified at. That I had no one in my family on either side, my dad's, my mom's, no one had gone through a divorce. I hadn't had any friends that had gone through a divorce. And so I was like, I am ruining the American dream, basically, almost for my kids and like what society has conditioned me into believing what was a family and what a family looks like, what it does, how holidays look, you know, what every day everybody comes home from school and work looks like, you know, birthdays, you know, just hanging out on weekends.

16:23 Like I, that was my biggest fear as I was ruining my kids' foundation of what a family looks like and what it's going to look like going forward. And so that was my biggest fear. And them resenting me for that, taking that away from them and having this shattered experience. I have since four years later come to realize that it was more me worried about that and more me with that conditioning of what a family is. And just because it's what I experienced and everybody around me experienced doesn't mean that it was good.

16:57 It doesn't mean that there weren't issues and it doesn't mean that there's not a better way because right now, four years later, I would say that my kids are experiencing a better family situation than they did before. They had the illusion of their dad and I being like this great couple and stable. But they have since told me, they were like, we knew you guys were going to get divorced. There were signs. We always think that we are keeping you know fooling our kids when they are more observant than anybody And so they come to you know share that like we knew you and dad were going to get divorced whether you were gay or not They've kind of figured that out.

17:37 But so now their dad has been in a relationship for a few years. I have been in a relationship for four for four years with a woman who also she came out in college. She did not have her family support. It was it was really tough for her mom. And so there was a lot there. that kind of forced her back into the closet. And she married someone that she worked with, a man. But they went on to have two great kids who were just a little bit younger than mine. And then, you know, she went through, it was right around COVID, right around that same time where she's like, I, you know, I can't do this anymore.

18:11 But also, you know, their marriage wasn't good in some ways. So they were making the right decision just in terms of, you know, their own relationship, regardless of her sexuality. but dating another mom has been so important and we talk about this all the time because as moms we we put our kids first like I I didn't start dating right away their dad jumped right in right and so I was like oh my god I'm gonna go into this slow because I can't even Sam I don't know if you remember but like I wasn't even I said I was doing this whether I was gonna find someone or not I hadn't ever had an experience with a woman prior I never had the opportunity There was never anything that ever happened my whole life.

18:50 And so I was this was this important to me that I was like, I don't I don't know that I'm ever going to find anyone. And I'm not like running headfirst into that to try and figure that out. The universe works the way that it does and did give me that opportunity. But I told their dad in June of 2021, and we didn't tell the kids until the following January, which that was hard. But it was really important for me to make sure that I was doing this in a healthy way, that their dad and I were on the same page with what story we were telling them.

19:24 And I also didn't want to attach it to a holiday to be like, oh, yeah, Thanksgiving's ruined. You remember the year mom came out and told us we were getting to, you know, I was so obsessed with, my God, this has to be the perfect time. I don't want to ruin this. I don't want to ruin that. And ultimately, it just happened anyway. And it's just going to happen and it's going to be OK. And so my like my biggest fear was ruining all these moments for my kids, ruining the picture. Right. And it being like mom's fault, mom's fault.

19:51 And I've robbed them of something. But telling them happened in a way that I didn't ever plan. It just kind of happened. Their dad had been out dating for months prior. I hadn't done anything because I was so focused on what I was about to do to them. Did they know you guys were separating at that point? No, because we were living in the same house, but we were still living in the same house. But we had actually already sort of been sleeping separately for quite some time because, I mean, I had such insomnia.

20:23 I think this was a big part of it. But we had already sort of been sleeping separate and had been pretty much the kids like whole lives or, you know, so they didn't really recognize there were anything functionally different in the household. You know, we and it was COVID. So it was weird anyway. Right. And so everybody was sort of these weird at home lives anyway. So it was almost like it gave it a great cover. And I didn't have someone that I was dying to go see, right? To like, where's mom? You know, I was there the whole time.

20:53 So like their dad was dating behind the scenes, tried to keep it really quiet. And we were just trying to figure this out. And I think where I'm going with this is my biggest fear was how I was going to ruin everything. And I was trying to plan so meticulously every little movement that I made. and Sam I think you pushed me to a point at the end where you're like Rebecca you're really gonna have to start dipping your toe into the pool to like this is great that you came out and you're so worried about your kids but like you kind of have to start to figure this out a little bit and so you know that I don't think that came until gosh we started working into in October and I don't think I really started to take steps until December ended up telling the kids in January in a way that I never expected.

21:37 Worst moment of my life, which I look back on is really, it was fine. And then my son, the 16 year old had a very visceral reaction. Like he was just started to hyperventilate and just, I mean, lost it physically. And it was a snowstorm. I'll never forget it. And he went outside and he's like, like trying to catch his breath. And he's like, I got to call Uncle Matt, who is my brother, who I came out to, who had already said, what if this is the best thing that happened to all of you. So I was so thankful that that's who he called, because that was the support system who was not mom who was trying to tell him one story.

22:11 It was not dad who was kind of standing there shell shocked. But he, you know, was able to have that conversation with my brother. So we were like, okay, let's go get my daughter. She was upstairs and like brought her down. And she had been questioning her own sexuality, kind of going through a non-binary sort of moment that I think was very prevalent of a lot of teenage girls at the time. And so she was very open and accepting and she's also the biggest people pleaser on the planet so when i told her she was very happy and huggy and then since she's had her own journey but um but again it is incredible today both kids are incredible but i guess what i'm saying is you go from what you think is the worst moment of your life and there were way worse ones that happened later like this isn't easy it's not for the faint of heart like trish and i are sitting here and sam you too like we've we've come a long way like this is hard and every day you have to choose to be the best person that you can be like to not get dragged into the ugliness that you know give in to those moments where you just want to tell your side of the story but you have to be the villain instead like it's it's one of those things where every day is a challenge and everyone's partner is different going through this too.

23:29 And so my experience was their dad was very supportive initially. But when it came time for me to start taking steps forward in my life, that's when things got challenging for him and then subsequently became challenging for my even more challenging for my kids. So everybody rides a roller coaster for a really long time. And I did it with teenagers who are hormonal and crazy. I was so trying to micromanage every little mood they had, right, where I was like, oh my God, like they're, you know, quiet or storming off or whatever this.

23:59 And I'm like, they hate me because I'm gay and I've just ruined their lives when really it had absolutely nothing to do with me. And they would tell me that. And they're like, mom, this isn't all about you. Like I have my own stuff going on. And I'm like, oh, okay. So getting away from that, like trying to micromanage like every little emotion and oh my God, they hate me. They're going to hate me forever. I've just ruined this. Like that was a lot of work that I had to do and be and listen to them and give them space.

24:24 And when your kids want that space, especially at that age, you've got to give it to them. You can't let them get too far, but you got to give it to them. And I think now that they're four years later and have seen the evolution of things and all of their friends are super supportive, like this is not a big deal. They actually think it's kind of cool. They're like, let's, you know, and so it's a different world now than it was maybe a few years ago with this. But I think the kids built resiliency getting through this.

24:52 Their dad had a lot of emotional challenges with it. I get that, right? Unfortunately, I think that he chose to share more with them in terms of his emotional instability with some things and his anger and frustration with me and kind of giving his sort of version of the story. And at times, from what I come to understand from my kids now, using them as therapists rather than letting them, you know, being supportive of them and then seeking, you know, sort of outside. I think my kids went through a lot that I'm sure he wishes he did differently.

25:23 But hindsight is 20-20. But the biggest thing that I learned from it, my daughter told me this not that long ago. She's like, Mom, the best thing you ever did is never to say anything bad about dad. And it was really hard at times because I wanted to scream from the rafters like, well, what about all these other things? And he's the one that kicked me out. Like it was not, you know, but it was such the right move. for me and for my kids to not get pulled into that storm. Even though so badly I wanted to tell my version, I have since been able to tell some important things that I feel like have given my kids some perspective that is helpful for them, not for me.

26:00 It's not self-serving. I think it was perspective that has helped them as they are young adults. It has caused them to look back at their dad in certain ways and sort of evaluate, you know, gosh, what could have this been had he done this different. But the biggest thing that I've done in those moments is to try and help them find grace with him. I said, he's still your dad. He's still that dad when you were little kids and all the way through, but he just lost his way for a while and kind of give him, have them find some grace with that.

26:29 And I think that has really helped. We don't do holidays together. Always the kids were very clear. They always wanted the holidays to be separate. We did the nesting thing for a while after they knew and they were super confused by that. Like they've since told us, we wish you would have just gone in separate households. We were so confused as to what was happening. And that's as teenagers. They were like, why didn't we just, you should, you know, so they, four years later, they have since been like, yeah, I wish you guys would have done that.

26:58 And I'm like, yeah, I can totally see how that would have been a better situation. But just now owning up to the imperfections, owning up to the maybe poor decisions, there are some things I wish I would have done differently for sure. But I think owning that with them, they see you now as a person with feelings and they're happy for me. They see my partner and her kids, they're so close and they see that family unit. They experience that family unit. They see that with their dad, who's now happy.

27:27 And they see it most when he's with his family. And they since have now been able to enjoy a different family type experience with their dad's family that they did when they were younger, but now I think they really enjoy it even more. So they're getting the family experience. They have so many people around them who love them and they know that they can go to. Me being gay did not destroy that. And that's what I thought I was going to do. And that's what I was so afraid of. Yeah. Wow. That's so, so powerful.

27:57 So many good messages in there, Especially just this idea of your biggest fear being like ruining this thing that it's supposed to look this certain way and it's supposed to go this certain way. And now here I am coming out and I'm going to just ruin all of that for everybody. It's not going to be that one way. Right. And then finally here, four years, four and a half years later, and being like, there are so many other beautiful ways to exist and so many experiences that they've opened up to and, you know, felt their way through that are not what it's supposed to be and how it's supposed to look.

28:44 but that doesn't make it any less valuable or any less worthy or any less beautiful or connecting, you know? So, I mean, everybody gets to be human. Everybody gets to be who they are. Yeah, I mean, so moving. And the other piece that I thought was really interesting was along with what about the kids, which is such a big one that I hear over and over, is this idea of like, which card do I use? Meaning, do I use I'm gay as the card to exit? Or do I use I'm not happy in this relationship and we haven't been happy for a while?

29:24 So like your kids were aware that the relationship was not working. You know, all those years of living with the two of you, they were like, well, at some point these two aren't going to be together. Having no idea anything about your sexuality, they already knew that. Right. And that's a tough one. And for a lot of people also, it's just this question of like, and you were kind of sharing like, you know, there's a part of you that kind of like wants to tell like your whole story and like what, like how you're suffering and what's been hard for you and what you're going through and while going through all of this.

29:55 But you, you know, you kept that for yourself. You didn't share that with them. You didn't make your ex-husband look like a bad guy in any way or share any of the difficulties you had in the marriage or anything like that. so that they just found their own path through. And when they do that, they kind of come, you know, our kids are, they might always be our kids, but like they grow into adults. So, you know, your kids are young adults. So, you know, they do start to see things and see patterns and notice a whole person's way of existing in the world.

30:29 And what kind of relationship is this? And how does my relationship with my father feel different than my relationship with my mother? And how does my father show up? And so they figure these things out that we're so worried about. on their own, which is amazing that they have that opportunity to actually really see each parent fully for who they are. Because, you know, this thing about like the family unit, you know, and I know we touched on this, but like it's coming up, so I'm just going to say it, is that when we're in these marriages that are very traditional and, you know, everything looks perfect is we do actually take on the emotional burden of the spouse we have that is less present, that is less emotionally available, that is maybe less physically available as well.

31:24 And so, you know, as women in the relationship, there are a lot of times where we take on this burden and become kind of a buffer between, you know, our kids picking up on that, that like, oh, you know, he, dad's not, he's not listening to me or he's not around as much or whatever it is, we kind of take on this burden from them really being able to see the full extent of their parent. And we kind of fill that space with all the love and all the attention and not until we're separated. And we've been living this way for a while.

31:55 Sometimes we look back and our kids are kind of like, huh, I'm noticing this interesting thing about like my dad that I, you know, this is new. I'm seeing this for the first time. We start to realize, oh my gosh, like I have carried a lot of duties to like fill all this space that was left there because, you know, my partner wasn't filling it in equally in these, in these ways. And I've been doing like buffering work of some kind. So much interesting information for those of you listening. So thank you for sharing that.

32:27 Yeah. One thing I would say on that too, is that what my kids experience was, is that even more so, I never paid really attention to it before, but they have so many friends who are of divorce parents and they have since been able to say, wow, you guys handle that way better than, you know, my friends over here's parents. They hate each other. They can't even be in the same room. And so like this is, you know, there's so many, unfortunately or fortunately, however you look at it, like parents who have made decisions to not be together.

32:55 So, so many of them grow up with friends. And so almost having married parents at this point is a little bit of the anomaly rather than, you know, a majority of your friends, parents having gone through something like this. And so, and so I think they had friends who were great support systems because they'd been through it or they were able to mirror, like, look at the, the situation of a friend or someone else that they had encountered and been like, oh my God, like my kids have been asked before, like, you know, what does it feel like?

33:22 What has it been like? What are you know? And they're like, it's been fine. Like, we're good. Like that. But that situation over there, I feel really bad for them. Like, you know, and so it I mean, it's the kids are resilient. They have other examples in the world of what could look worse. And so it's it's the world that we live in and them going through it only makes them more prepared for the life that they don't even know is coming for them in their own as they as they grow. Right. They can do hard things.

33:51 And I remind my kids of that. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing that you're, you know, really worried about for all of you out there that are listening, this telling them that you're gay, which is really like the big concern I hear about, that might not even be anywhere. It's more about how do you handle, you know, the family changing its structure and how do you do that? Me being gay, my kids never had a problem with. They said that from the beginning. It has been sort of the divorce and kind of navigating all of that after.

34:26 It was never about being gay. Yeah. Let that sink in, everybody. Okay. Thank you, Rebecca. Okay, Trish, moving on to having adult children and having had this, you know, very long marriage and knowing for all of these years that you were gay, you know, knowing really even before you got married and then coming out and having, as most husbands do, having your husband go into denial about what you shared and then having to come out again and then coming out again finally you know for the last time in 2021 Can you share with our listeners here just what was it about coming out to your children that felt the most terrifying?

35:11 So for me, I feel like there's two themes and the deepest one and the hardest one to overcome is 30 years of hiding who I was in shame and guilt for getting married in the first place when down the road I realized this is not going away. I am gay. You know, I've got the perfect, from the outside, perfect marriage, you know, happy family, and I've done this thing to them, I have hurt them because I didn't recognize who I was and who I felt this part of me that I wasn't sharing was shameful, disgusting, not worthy of being a parent, not worthy of holding a job.

36:04 In the 90s, in my province, a guy lost his job for being gay. That happened when my kids were born. And they had to take it to the Supreme Court of Canada to say that the college that fired this person, this young lab teacher, did something that was against his human rights. First, the college fired him. He took it to the provincial level courts and said, this has got to be illegal, isn't it? He's firing. I'm being fired because I'm gay. And they said, no, your employer has a right to fire you. It took nine years of fighting and going to the Supreme Court for him to get validated that that was an abuse of his human rights.

36:48 And then it came back to the province who decided they were going to override the Supreme Court ruling and use a notwithstanding clause to not accept what the Supreme Court of Canada had said. And this is happening to me when my kids are like one in four or something, you know, and I am taking this in. So I already knew it was terrible to be gay when I was in high school and junior high because everybody got called a faggot. And you're so gay was like the usual slur of the day. I see in my high school, any kid that was gay was sort of marginalized and ostracized.

37:29 and I just so wanted to be a mom that I you know I pushed every part of that down and didn't want to be that and so as you hold that secret from you know 13 to 33 the first time I ever told a therapist that I thought I might be gay like that the shame and the judgment about yourself just continues to build. And then I went through the 80s where Reagan was in government and the AIDS crisis and conversion therapy and, you know, holding so much judgment of myself. And so this thinking that what I was, this part of me that I was about to tell my kids was a terrible thing and was really near the surface.

38:22 And I mean, I love my kids more than anything in the world. And this disordered thinking, this concretized thinking, by keeping hiding it and hiding it, it was terrifying on an instinctive level because that was the level that my internalized homophobia was at. It was in my gut and so suppressed. so even though I have beautiful delightful kids no part of me in that moment would have predicted that they would have had it as beautifully as they did like it was just terrifying that they would see this part of me that I felt so terrible about and so I ended up like writing it out on a letter what I wanted to say really fortunately my husband was on the same page we sat down together to tell them.

39:17 I told them and my son within like, I think I had a little five minute speech that I kind of read through because I didn't think I would be able to hold it together otherwise or say what I wanted to say. And part of that too was feeling like I needed to apologize for who I was and what I had done. And that had ended up in putting us in this place where our family would possibly have to take on a new form and but within like two minutes of me starting what I was saying my son said to me right away mom I love you no matter what and my daughter was quiet through the whole thing but then her first comment the first thing she said was what about dad so you could just see, you know, she was so concerned for him.

40:10 But we were, we were able to sit together in that and say, you know, we don't know where this is going to go or how it's going to turn out. But we're, we're here to tell you that we're sitting here together as a team. And we've already talked, you know, we think that really loving somebody and your dad and I loving each other is about allowing me to be who I need to be, who I couldn't be in the relationship. And that the most important thing is that, like that is the actual, what love is. Love is honoring somebody no matter what, however they show up and allowing them to be who they are, not staying in a marriage that feels like a jail where both persons' needs aren't being met, mine to be my authentic self, my husband to be fully loved by somebody who's fully heterosexual and can offer him physical expressions of love every day that just did not come naturally to me.

41:15 So that, I guess, kind of now switches to the second piece. So there was so much fear because of my internalized homophobia and what I believed about myself and not knowing how that would land on my kids or the rest of my family for that matter, not trusting that I would be loved anyway, which is what happened. I was loved anyway and in spite of it. And again, a thing that I was terrified about became a beautiful healing, healing moment for me because I was brave enough to say who I was and not a single person left me behind because of that.

41:50 Everybody showed up for me, you know? Wow. So powerful. And then the last piece about this divorce stigma is so real. And I think a piece of that is that so many people stay together because they've taken this marriage vow until they absolutely hate each other. Like that the biggest badge of marriage is staying together for as long as you can instead of loving each other deeply and loving each other enough to let each other go if you aren't making each other happy. And so I was I was definitely worried as a mom because what I had learned about divorce, just like what I had learned about being gay, was all of these terrible things.

42:36 but we both did it with consciousness intention and compassion and grace for each other in a way that today we still are friends we still show up and co-parent together co-grandparent together and we can go to our son's wedding and be at the birth of our daughter's children in a way that is loving, respectful, like in a friendly familial way. That's beautiful. And that has relaxed the kids so much. They have such a different experience of divorce than what they've seen around them with so many marriages where they just stay together until they really strongly dislike each other and can't be in the same room.

43:23 And I would say again, I'm so proud of us for doing that and for showing because divorce happens. How can you do it with intention and love for the person that you did love for so long? You know, there's a reason you loved and chose this person. And by letting it end in a conscious way where both couple can love each other enough to be who they are for us has been such a gift for our family. And now four years later, our kids are so comfortable. We can do periods together as a family, shorter periods.

44:01 And we're all well. We're all thriving. And I have given my kids, like, again, what do you want for your kids? I never want my kids to stay in a marriage they're unhappy with just because they took that vow or they think they have to to give their kids a good life. It's not true. You can give your kids a good life in many different relationship styles. What about you, Sam? What was your biggest fear? I mean, they were so little, so I don't even know. We did sit them down. I mean, they were really little.

44:32 They were five, five, and two. And we did sit them down on the couch. And it's funny because one of my sons remembers that moment where we sat them on the couch. Only one of the three of them remembers it and told them that we were going to be separating and living in two different spaces. But the gayness didn't come into that conversation. So it was really more just about separating. I mean, I was like devastated at, you know, at that point in time, even though it was my decision, it was all my doing, you know, it was not what he wanted, but it was, I couldn't, I could not stay any longer.

45:22 Like I had to separate. I had to be, I had to live my truth. I just had to. It was like, I felt like I was living like half dead, you know, for a number of years. And then when I came back to life, after having this catalyst, I just couldn't go back to being half dead again. So definitely a lot of guilt, you know, and also had a very litigious separation and divorce that took three years of us living under the same roof. It was it was just it was so hard. It was interesting because from the outside, I got a lot of feedback from people that said, you know, hey, I'm going through this, you know, just divorce.

46:01 And I'm going through a separation. You guys have done such a beautiful job. Like you show up in such, you know, such a like good way out in the world. Like, can you share with us how you like, how did you do this? And it was interesting because on the inside, it was so messy and so awful. But somehow, you know, when we when we were out in the world, it looked OK. And I think for the kids, they didn't see that much of like the ugly. but they lived in that tension for three years with us sleeping in different rooms and him not doing well.

46:38 And so, you know, I certainly felt really, I felt guilty. I felt confused. How could I, how could I not have known this? How is this possible that I just, all of a sudden I'm gay? Five weeks later, I'm gay and I need to get divorced. Like, how is this possible? And, you know, and then really, honestly, for me, it was just a lot of survival, a lot of years of living in survival. There were family pieces to it that I was very sad to lose and family times that we had. We had a house at the beach also, so there was, you know, selling that house, which was devastating.

47:18 I mean, that was the kids loved that place and having to let go of that. And, you know, there were definitely things that were really, really hard to let go of. But I didn't have this idea of like, and you guys both had many more years of sort of forming these family rituals around the holidays and like, you know, what being a family looked like. My ex-husband traveled like four months out of the year he was away. So I was really kind of, I felt a lot like on my own with the kids. I didn't feel like I was like ruining a family life that was supposed to look any specific way.

47:52 That I did not have. I also didn't really have any internalized homophobia. Why? I have no idea. I didn't really care if people knew that I was gay. I was like, yep, I'm gay, you know, and my ex-husband outed me, you know, everywhere. So it was a really different experience, I have to say. I mean, it was around the time of the L Word coming out. So it was like, you know, there was kind of something about it that that felt OK with that show kind of coming out. I was like, I'm part of this, you know.

48:27 But but again, I don't think it's the gay piece, but it's really the divorce piece. How do you co-parent with somebody when your kids are really little and you realize you're gay and you're going to separate? How do you set up schedules for your kids that are going to support them in the best way? Is there a certain amount of time when kids are really young that maybe there should be more time for a much younger kid to be with their mother than with their father? who hasn't really been doing parenting ever, you know, but now is going to be with them 50% of the time.

48:53 Maybe that's not a great idea. Maybe that's something you might want to fight for. And I actually tried to fight for that, but it did not, I couldn't get it. You know, but these are things to think about, you know, for your kids. So my experience is like, you know, listening to you guys and kind of what you went through and just, yeah, I mean, I think it's different with having older kids. The worries are different. My kids just always thought I was gay. They never knew me as anything else. So there was no real coming out to them.

49:24 But divorce is something to contend with. And also when you pick somebody to be with when you're like 20 or 25, you know, I got married at 26. I had no idea about anything. Like you're so young. You have so much growing to do. 50% of marriages end in divorce. You know, it's okay. We grow. Sometimes we grow together. Sometimes we grow apart. You know, it doesn't have to be the end of the world there. And you guys, you know, really highlight this. There are ways to go through this and have it be really successful where everybody ends up being able to be their best selves and being in relationships with people that see them for who they are, you know, including our ex-husbands, being in relationships with women who really want them.

50:11 That is a gift to let him go so he can be with a woman who really wants him. I think that's a gift. My ex-husband told me not that long after, I guess a year or so after we had separated or divorced, he eventually said to me, thank you for doing, like basically thank you for doing being the one that ripped the band-aid off because it saved me from having to do it, right? And so it was, he wasn't getting what he needed. That was very obvious. I think that was one of the things that I felt really badly about was that.

50:41 And a lot of times I was like, oh, my God, I know I can do this. I'm not gay. I can get there and feel it and give him. And I would look at his brother and sister-in-law who were like the cutest couple. And I was like, I want that, but I can't do it. Like I tried. And so he wasn't getting for 18 years what he needed. And he is with someone now who does give that to him, who is like all that. and so much of that journey, I didn't know if I was even capable, right? So I was questioning, I'm like, am I even capable of feeling that way?

51:12 And after coming out and really becoming my authentic self, I'm like, oh my God, I am like, I am a deep feeler. I am can get into the mushiness in the fields and want to get into the dirty stuff of like, how do you communicate? How do you want to communicate with someone to make this better? Like how to become a better partner? I didn't invest in that self-help and like that had to be a partner, had to be a better partner stuff because it just wasn't right. And I wasn't in it in a way that with my whole self and that was robbing him of that opportunity.

51:47 And so now he can do that with someone else. And I have learned so much about myself. Like, I can't even tell you I'm a totally different person than I was five years ago. I'm not so much of my questioning for so many years was like, am I just an emotionally closed off person? Like my when I came out to my parents, one of the first things my mom said is she like hugged me and cried. And she's like, I always knew there was something I never understood why you didn't cry. I never understood why you went into like chief operating officer mode whenever anything emotional happened.

52:17 Like she's like, I never knew what it was. And I said, because I could never admit to myself that I was gay But I when I came out I didn have like internalized homophobia that stopped me I came out at work I came out There no place that I not out And fortunately I was in a very supportive environment which was also like a fishbowl because my kids went to the school My ex worked at the school. We all worked in this little place. But I think that's the story is rely on your relationships. Like so many people, I have such stronger relationships with people now because you have to be, vulnerability is such an important foundation of relationships.

52:52 And so I look at my relationships with my kids, of course, but with my parents, with my siblings, with my best friends that I've had my whole life are actually now even stronger because now they can see me for who I am and sort of always knew there was sort of that veil there, but didn't quite understand what it was. But now that that's not there and they see me living authentically and see me, you know, loving life, even though it's hard because it's life, it's going to be, but living it as my authentic self, having this amazing relationship that's taught me so much and being open with it and being everyone letting my kids see that they saw my kids saw a very stressed out version of me 14 to 16 years of their lives, they saw that I was always close to like exploding, anxious and all of these things.

53:38 And yes, that is sort of my base, kind of my baseline personality. But so much of it was because I was hiding who I was. And so now they get to experience mom who's not like this stressed out, crazy, you know, just like, let's just get through the day. And I've got this much patience and all of that. It's, you know, it's not because I not just because I came out. But when you start living authentically and not hiding, you almost can't stop it all from coming. Like it just all of a sudden it all of a sudden comes out, which has allowed me and forced me to start doing work on myself in other ways.

54:14 Right. It's like now it's like let's peel back the onion and say, well, who am I? Like, how do how do I want to show up in the world? How do I want to be a partner? How do I want to communicate? And so these are all things I never would have experienced had I not had my brother change my mindset that day when I was so focused on I'm going to ruin everyone's lives to what if it's the best thing that did happen. And he was right. He was right. It was hard. It was hard. But there isn't a single moment that I wouldn't take back.

54:48 that I would take back. Like it's maybe done a couple of things a little differently, but when I stop and think about how close I was to not saying those words to him that day, I can't even imagine what my life would look like right now if I continue to stay the course. I just wanted to circle back to the buffer conversation just for a moment too and offer that that is, even though our kids are adults, our kids... still at now they're 30 and 33, have expectations of us. And those expectations are based on the 30 years of marriage we had that they grew up in.

55:31 And they are finding out for the first time in the last couple of years, now that we've kind of settled into how are our major holidays going to look? How are our individual family vacations going to look like? What does the vacation look like with Trish? And what does a vacation look like with my ex? And what does Trish as a grandparent bring? And how does that compare when my ex is there as a grandparent? I'm getting some feedback from them that they have a level of frustration with my ex in the sense that he's not They feel the relationship as different from when we were married.

56:18 And I was, like you said, Sam, managing the whole emotional scene, right? Anything that needs to be buffered. Like if basically, you know, the way the holidays went is he would quit work and everything else I have figured out. Where are we going to go for a vacation? What everybody needs to pack? The whole grocery list. And his job was just to like go home the next day, pack his own bag and then leave on vacation stress free. Right. And so there's a piece of me that is happy for my kids to see how much work I did to make sure that those experiences that they had as kids were as fun, enjoyable as they were.

57:04 and there's a recognition that when they go do these things with my ex that my ex still sort of tends to center himself more or before the kids and that's been a journey and also because I still care about him and I want my kids to have a good experience part of me lets my kids deal with that and encourages them to express their feelings to their dad and the other part of me tries to like throw them a couple bones and say, hey, like, you know, next time you plan a vacation, why don't you involve the kids in picking which place you're going to so that it suits the whole family, not just you and where you want to go.

57:47 When Rebecca and I were talking earlier, she was saying that she sort when her kids came to her with similar sort of struggles with how their dad was showing up, she offered that to her kids that they need to have grace because these husbands are learning to be more fuller expression of a parent than they often had to be. And I'm talking probably more boomer age people and Gen X age people. I know our kids are getting much more involved in the way they can bring their both masculine and feminine traits to any relationship.

58:27 But I feel like For boomers and Gen X age people, it's very defined what our roles were. And men were able to just go to work and that was it. And everything else in the home happened because of us. And so my kids are having to learn now that the buffer of me making everything smooth isn't there, that Barry has some growth that he can do to figure out or that they can ask him if he's capable of doing. I don't know. It's not my job to manage how that goes. But I'm just saying my kids are struggling with that a bit.

59:01 I'm trying to help Bury with it a bit. I'm trying to help my kids with it a bit. And I'm also trying to stay out of it because that's for them to work out in their adult relationships with each other. But it's something I never expected or was aware of when the divorce would happen that we would see such a huge discrepancy and delineation of what one parent brought to the relationship versus the other. and that you might be involved in managing or not managing that a bit. Yeah. Trish, when we spoke about this about a week or two ago, it was with my kids experience.

59:37 It's been, you know, more around the holidays. Right. And they just verbalize this to me this past Christmas where, you know, they were with their dad and his family up in and, you know, where his family's from in Maryland. And then they came back to me Christmas night and walked in and they were kind of like, well, it didn't really feel like Christmas. We didn't, you know, whatever. You know, I've got like the whole Christmas tree and all of the presents and like, let's jump into this. It's it is that was a reality for us.

1:00:00 Right. Their dad was very involved in their upbringing. Like he he cooked, he cleaned or, you know, he was given baths and driving here and there. So I didn't have the experience where I had a husband that was gone or that was, you know, he was extremely involved, got his hands dirty. I would argue at certain levels probably got his hands drier than I did because I would be working a lot of hours there, you know, back and forth. So I didn't have that experience. I think it was when we weren't together each building on each other's strength.

1:00:33 Like, you know, his strength was, you know, maybe my weakness and my strength was his weakness. And so I always kept a much cleaner house. I still do that today. And so when they go to there, they're witnessing dad as, you know, not having mom cleaning the house. Right. But then they also experience him as like, you know, more of like the fun dad too. Like, and, and so I'm not as fun. Right. And so they, they experienced both, but I think the holidays were like a more of an obvious difference because as moms, we just do Christmas.

1:01:03 Like it's more whatever holiday you celebrate. Like a lot of times the mom is the center of the magic that happens behind the scenes or birthdays and gift giving is like where my kids are like, Whoa, like there's a big difference here. But what I've tried to do is be like your dad is still trying to get his feet under him as a single parent to young adult kids. You need to talk to him about it. I am not putting myself in the middle of it. That is not I would not want him to put himself in the middle of my relationship with the kids or what I'm deciding to do.

1:01:36 So I'm not going to put myself and try and contact him and say, hey, this is what the kids said. I mean, if there's something that I feel like is important that they're really hesitant to share, I will certainly give him a heads up and he will do the same for me. But when it comes to figuring out what their relationships look like and what holidays look like or what expectations are, I'm like, guys, just tell them, like, have you talked to them? Like, have you said? And so it's more of that, like, as they grow, like kind of giving them the confidence to be like, you don't need to go through me, right?

1:02:05 Like, just tell them like your experience, you know, and so I think that has been a very real experience, but less so because their dad was very involved in a lot growing up. It's just what does it look like when he doesn't have the mom kind of magic in the background or his blind spots are exposed because I'm not there because that's my strength and my blind spots are exposed because he's not involved in the fun, you know, kind of a thing. Yeah. Every relationship brings different dynamics. There's like the super traditional.

1:02:39 I was, I think more like you, Trish, and like a very traditional sort of him out working and me at home with the kids and me doing everything outside of working, you know, is a very traditional marriage. And so that brings with it, it's all of its own stuff that gets exposed afterwards. Is there any last thing that you want to tell somebody who is in this place of they're just like, I don't think I could do this because of my kids. Like, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to ruin their lives. Like, I mean, you guys have already shared so many beautiful other ways to look at this situation and so many reasons why it's important to look at it from these different angles as well.

1:03:17 But like, I don't know, is there any like last thing you would just want to say to somebody who's in that who's in that place before we close today? I'll be so cliche and go right back to that Glenn Doyle on team quote that stays with me and I'm going to get it wrong. So I'll have to Google it exactly what it is. But it's like waiting for the other shoe to fall is harder than the shoe actually falling. And so that concept of like that anticipation of like, oh, my God, what is this going to look like?

1:03:45 And you know, it's going to come eventually, but you're so afraid of it happening. You stay like you stay frozen. rather than just letting the shoe fall and dealing with it, like you have your power when you do that. And you just take one step at a time. And I remember, you know, in our group, Trish, this came up a lot with a few of the other other women that we were working with. It's like you see I'm going to come out or I'm going to if I come out like and here's where I want to be. Like I want to be in a relationship.

1:04:12 I want everybody to be doing great. I want everyone thriving. but you're starting here. And then it's, you know, if you're looking at the top of the mountain, it seems insurmountable because it is if you're just thinking about it. Right. But it's like we always would say just what's the first step. And when you take the first step, the next step is going to present itself. And then you're going to take the next step. And then the next step is going to present itself. That's how this works. And I would argue the faster you try and move through it, the more of a challenge and more of a, you know, a difficult, unhealthy situation that you're going to get into it.

1:04:46 You have, Sam, you always said this, it's like, there's no way around the messy middle. You have to go through it. And once you start to take action and take that first step and the next step and the next step, that's when momentum builds. And that's when you're actually building yourself and your own self like image and authenticity. And you're, you're becoming a better version of yourself each time you take each step. And so I just look at it as that mountain and just say, don't look at the top where I want to be.

1:05:13 Look at what that first step is. And then the next one's going to be obvious. And I think for me, something like being four years out now, I want to offer is when we say it's really hard, like it was really hard for probably two years. If we want to use Sam's two years thing, it was really hard for two years. And then the next two years, like we were in the messy middle for, you know, around a year to two years where it was still really messy. And then the divorce was finalized. And this past two years has been a rebuilding phase where now we have like three or four Christmases under our belts and what that looks like.

1:05:57 And so we've established our new normal four years later. And I know I had a cousin who was divorced twice. And I said to her, like, how long does it take to feel normal again? Like everybody's normal. And she offered that it was four years. And I just find it so interesting now that for me, it's four years. And I feel in such a good place and through all of the really hard stuff. And I'm happy every single day that I made this choice. and there's no looking back. And yeah, just that's what I want to offer.

1:06:32 Like when we say it's hard, it might not look like you want it to look for four years. Like let's just put it out there. And it might be two years of the roller coaster. Like that roller coaster is the thing that everybody says, you know, happens. Or the lesbian launch pad, where you feel like you're just flying through the air with you have no control over what's going on and you're just trying to stay balanced. but you get through it and I also like want to agree with what Rebecca said is from taking baby steps what's the next one degree change that you can make thank you yeah those are both amazing and my god so much wisdom in this and really I mean I'm just going to add mine which is like you know it feels like the top of that mountain where you might dream you could one day get to is like so far away, but also, I mean, I look at the two of you and like, I just, I'm also in so much awe.

1:07:28 Like when I started doing this work, I had no idea. I just built a program when I worked with the two of you and seeing you four years and a few months later and where you are is like unbelievable. And while four years might sound like a lot of time to somebody out there, I'm just like, oh my God, look where you are in four years. Right? Because I mean, my journey was so long because my kids were so young. And I also didn't, you know, I didn't have anybody to help me unpack and unlearn all of this stuff.

1:08:05 Four years is, is four years is like not a lifetime and you're going to grow and evolve so much in the time that it takes you to get to where you want to be. And also the thing that I say all the time is that we have one time through in this human suit. So like, what are you waiting for? You know, like take that one step and then take the next one step. I think everybody here is a testament to what it looks like when you do that and when you actually lean into what living authentically looks like, you know.

1:08:42 So. Absolutely. Yeah. Time's passing. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is it. It's now or never, you know, take those steps. So thank you so much, both of you for being here and sharing your beautiful stories and difficulties with the audience here. Yeah, so, so grateful. So appreciative. Thank you so much. Happy to do it. Thanks, Sam.

1:09:11 Thank you for spending this time with me on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps more folks find these conversations. If you're ready to unbox from something that's keeping you stuck, I would love to support you. You can find the application to the show at unboxyoursexuality.com. Let's stay connected. Find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at Lesbian Curiosity Coach.

1:09:41 Give me a follow and join the conversation. Remember, we only have this one time through. Why not unbox yourself and let your true self shine in all its beautiful glory?