Raised to Not Trust Myself - How Could I Know I Was Gay?

Samantha Fox: From day one, we are told who we should be, how to live, and what's acceptable. Before we even have a chance to discover ourselves, our society has already drawn those lines for us. But what happens when those lines are keeping us from knowing and embracing who we truly are? Welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, a podcast about unpacking and unlearning everything that's kept you from living as your true self. Through honest conversations about your internal emotional landscape, sexuality, coming out later in life, relationships, and the journey to self-acceptance, we break free from the boxes we never chose. Hi everybody, thank you so much for joining. Today I have on a special guest named Morgan. Morgan came to me a year ago when she was 28, really struggling with the question as to whether or not she was bisexual and struggling with a lot of anxiety and not knowing how to trust what she was feeling. She entered into the community that I had then, which is now called Beyond Straight, but last year was called The By Life. And through being in the community, joining the Unbox Your Sexuality program and working with me one-on-one, Morgan has transformed in a way that I find so unbelievable in one year from when I met her. we caught up. A couple of weeks ago when she said, I think it's just about a year since I met you. she shared a little bit about what was going on in her life. And I said, You've got to come on the podcast. If you are questioning your sexuality, if you grew up in Christian extremism, if you are struggling to trust yourself or you are gaslighting yourself about your sexuality. This episode is for you. Morgan's story is so inspiring. if you're looking for community and a way to step into curiosity and feeling less isolated as you discover what your sexuality actually is and means to you, check out Beyond Straight. It's linked in the show notes. It's beautiful community where you can explore, meet other people who are on the same journeys of exploration and feel accepted no matter where you are on this journey. hello and welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. I'm so excited. I have an amazing guest today, Thank you for being here, Morgan.

Morgan: Thanks for having me.

Samantha Fox: You're so welcome. So It's a year since

Morgan: Okay.

Samantha Fox: Morgan found me last October.

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: and a lot has changed in Morgan's life. And I thought, well, this is a one-year anniversary that we should celebrate. And kind of go back and just take a journey over where you were when you came to me and then the journey that that went on from there. So I'm gonna just ask you for the listeners out there, Morgan, if

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: you can share a little bit of your history before we even met.

Morgan: Yeah, it's been a year. That's really crazy. Yeah, so let's see. I'm 29 now. I was 28 when we met. I have three kids who are nine, seven, and four now. And I've been married for 11 years now. I grew up in San Diego where I still live and I was raised, very like Christian conservative. and so that was, you know, all of the purity culture and all of the things that come along with that. and so I was a pretty sheltered kid for most of my life and then started dating my now husband when I was 16 years old. you know, looking back now, I'm like, there's a lot of things that I just had no awareness of because of how repressed I was. I didn't relate to my peers who were having crushes on boys. But I just was like, I guess this is just how you feel, this is normal, you know? And when I got into the relationship with my husband, in the way that I grew up was very like, you don't have sex before you're married. And so that kind of unintentionally or intentionally pushes things faster when you're in that. And so wound up getting married when I was 18. And then things... between us in our physical relationship never really clicked, but I didn't know any different. And I wound up getting pregnant when I was 19 and going through all that that entails had two other kids, so three kids. And over time, was just like really, I was still in the church, very... dedicated to the church, but also feeling like something just doesn't feel right, but I don't know what it is.

Samantha Fox: this was just like your own internal feeling. Was it something that you shared with him or

Morgan: I'm grateful that we've always been best friends and he's always been a safe person for me. So I was sharing certain things with him, but at the time I was just like, it's the trauma, it's purity culture, it's postpartum. Like there's something not right with my... I guess you could now say sexuality, but at the time I was like, there's all these other reasons why something's not clicking. Yeah,

Samantha Fox: Like the desire wasn't clicking a sense.

Morgan: the desire and even just like when we would be intimate, like things just didn't feel right. But I didn't, yeah, I just chalked it up to all these other things and kept trying different ways to... Like maybe it'll just take time or maybe therapy and like all of these things just weren't really helping and I didn't know. I tried

Samantha Fox: You tried, you tried these other things.

Morgan: and I had, you know, friends that I would talk to about it and no one could really relate to my experience. And so I was just like, maybe there's something for a while I was like, maybe I'm asexual. I also was just like, I'm broken. There's something wrong with me. And Yeah, that went on for a long time before I started to even question, like, maybe, I'm attracted to women. And that even, even just that question, like being bi maybe was like, scary. Like, I can't even, it took me a long time to admit that to myself. And that was an ongoing conversation with him actually too. And I remember one time, when I finally, after so long, was like, okay, yeah, maybe I'm bi. He was so supportive. He was like, that's great. And he was like, even if you were a lesbian and that's what felt right for you, I would just want you to be happy. I just love you as a person. And this was like six or seven years ago. And I was so, that felt, I remember hearing him say that and being like, no, no, no, no, that's not it. That's not gonna happen. And he was like, I'm not saying that. And just saying if it was. And it like scared me to hear him say that. And I think looking back there was a kernel of truth in it for me, but it was just the idea of something happening to the life I was building was too scary to look like fully go there.

Samantha Fox: It was it just that though, or was it also, I mean, yes, you were building quite a family and quite a life,

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: and you know, he was your best friend and all of that, but was it also like, my god, that would be the worst thing in the world because of the way I was raised, because of my religion, because you know, no one would accept me or I wouldn't belong? Like, was that there too?

Morgan: Yeah, I think totally like a lot of internalized homophobia and I always felt really torn about that consciously. that was part I've since deconstructed and have left the church and that was a lot of my initial like discomfort with being in the church was there's my church at least was their stance on like LGBTQ people and just, it just felt like I was being told I had to believe this thing, like that it was a sin and it just felt wrong to believe that. But I had like grown up with that my whole life. And then there was this internal thing happening for me So like, yeah, consciously I was like, that doesn't feel right, but I feel like I have to believe this thing. So it was a lot of like internal conflict around that. And I definitely think that impacted my ability to even come out to myself because I was just like, would be not only, like you said, would I have to reckon with what I do now with like this family I'm building, but also, yeah, am I gonna go to hell? Can I even, know, all of that totally impacted it for sure, yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So so he said that and you were just like, No, no, no, no, no. I am definitely not a lesbian.

Morgan: buy maybe maybe and and also we're we're married so what does that even mean like at the time it was like well that's a cool piece of information i guess but moving on like there was not a whole lot i felt like i was gonna change my life about that information

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: and at the same time i was like well okay then why if if that's the case then maybe that's not the thing that's impacting our dynamic. If I'm actually bi, that shouldn't be, you know, I was just like, that's not really answering this question for me essentially.

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: But it was, it was getting there, but something still was like, nah, I don't, but I sat at that level with it for a long time,

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: years really. And

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: during those years is when I started deconstructing from Christianity. and COVID was happening, you know, there's a lot happening. And I think coming out of the religion over time definitely was like very connected to my journey of sexuality. Like it can't really be disconnected from it for me. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm.

Morgan: So then basically to tie it back to where I was at last year,

Samantha Fox: Yeah, where were you because I remember when we met first that that question was still a big question for you. And I would say it was like the biggest question for you was am I bisexual or am I gay?

Morgan: Yeah, yeah, so what had been happening for me was I would kind of, I almost thought about it as like these, almost this like roller coaster I was going on where there would be periods of time where this intense, just all of these feelings and questions were coming up so intensely that I'd be dreaming every night about women. I would be like, it was just like affecting my everyday life because I'd be dreaming about it and then I'd be feeling guilty in the morning and I would be questioning it. was just taking up all this brain space.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, a lot of energy.

Morgan: And then I would be like, not know what to do with that. I'd talk about it with my therapist who wasn't queer and she didn't give me a lot. Like it wasn't really helping. And then I would kind of suppress it to because I was like, well, I've tried to kind of face this, but it's. just feeling uncomfortable and I'm not getting anywhere with it. So then I'd like kind of suppress it and it would feel better for a little while. And then it would, that cycle would repeat. And so what happened was last year, more in the beginning of last year, I went through like a really challenging family time unrelated wound up fostering a baby for a couple months and supporting family members through that. And that was a really just exhausting and challenging time for our family. And during that, in a time where I was like, there's just no way I have time to process anything right now. Like I'm at my absolute limit is when all of this was coming up the most. And it was so confusing for me because I'd be like driving and all of a sudden just be like sobbing and just feeling all of this almost like. grief. It felt like I was like realizing this grief of everything that I had missed out on that I've never got to experience in my life that maybe I would never get to experience. And then also it felt like I was just so trapped because it was like, well, I'm feeling this grief about this thing. But also like it felt like the alternative was just as horrible. you know, leaving was bad. Staying was bad. It just felt really Yeah, like trapped. And it was during this time where I was like, hey, but I don't have energy to really face this right now. Like I'm in kind of a crisis. And so coming out of that was like last summer is when I was like that situation kind of resolved. And I kind of realized through it like, okay, so this is not gonna just go away. this, need. to face this because I'm realizing that I don't want to go my whole life feeling this way. And I don't think it's sustainable. It's just, it kind of reached ahead basically. And I had been following you, I feel like at least for like a year maybe. I don't know, I mean, must've popped up on my algorithm. And I remember when I first followed you, I was interested but scared. It was like, too confronting to really dive in. And so I would kind of see some of your content and then be like, I can't really look at that. Like that feels too real. And then I think I just saw one of your posts about at the time, the By Life group that you were doing that was very, it felt very geared towards my situation. And I was like, you know, this feels accessible to me. It feels like, okay, I can do this online thing. And it'll feel like I had been wanting to work with a queer therapist for a while, because my current therapist was just not feeling like I was getting anywhere. And I was like, maybe this is a way that I can kind of do that and feel like I'm actually facing this thing that I've been avoiding for so long. And so I talked to my husband about it and I was like, OK, I am interested in it. You know, I had to pay for it. So was like. And I'm stay at home mom, that's, you know, we share all our finances and I don't have my own. So it was one of those things where I was like, hey, I want to pay for this. I want to do this. I'm a little nervous, but I think that this is good for me. Like, I think I have to just like dedicate myself to figuring this out because I can't keep doing what I'm doing. And he had known like how much I was maybe I hadn't shared the extent at which I was like. distraught over it, but he knew that I was really struggling. I'm grateful that he was really supportive. He was like, yeah, that sounds great. Like do whatever you need to do. And so yeah, I joined that group and I remember feeling like immediately it was just so, surprising and validating to hear other people's stories that were so similar to mine. Like in certain ways, very different, but in like the experience, so similar.

Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm.

Morgan: And I think because I had been afraid to confront it, I hadn't really sought out other community and no one in my close vicinity at home had a similar experience. And so it was like, well. Whoa, like if these people are having this experience and so many of us are, you know, I was like, I was on the Reddit threads. I really just like dove in and

Samantha Fox: You don't.

Morgan: I was like, okay. So like, this is real. can't just, you know, I can't just convince myself this isn't real anymore because so many people are having this experience. I can't, it's not just me, you know?

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: And that was... It was scary because it was like, I think I might've stepped through a door that I can't easily just close and go back through.

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: But it also felt so good. I remember just feeling like, wow, it feels like I'm doing something about this. I'm not, it felt so good to not ignore it and to feel like, there's other people who can relate. It just felt like that community aspect of it was so important for me. even though it was online. And I didn't have any friends at the time really because of leaving the church. I had lost a lot of that community. So it was really huge to have someone to talk to. And then it was around that time, like not long after I joined the group is when I started doing your program and like working with you one-on-one.

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: And that was huge. Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah, I remember I remember saying to you many times that your reflection work was I was so impacted by it. Do you remember me telling you that? Like

Morgan: Mmm. Yeah, yeah, I do.

Samantha Fox: because the reflection work is deep inner work where you're really asking yourself these questions and yours was even though you had totally deconstructed and you were no longer in the church, the beliefs that were there were still so much based on what you had learned. I don't know if it was the compulsory femininity or something about like the gender roles. I wasn't brought up in the church or in any strong religion. So I didn't have any of that. Like I had typical patriarchal, societal stuff, you know, like even though both my parents worked, my mom still had to do everything and my dad had to do nothing, you know,

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: which pissed me off from the time I was like four. You know, I was like, something's wrong here, you know. But

Morgan: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: I didn't have the level of beliefs about how the family is supposed to respond to the man and how the woman, the wife, the mother, how she responds to the man and like all of these things. I remember just, you know, your your reflection work was so

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: intense to learn about.

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: I think one of the biggest things that I... in like doing that work, I mean, there's so many things like you're saying that I, it was so good to, I think a lot of it is I'm such an external processor that a lot of this, all of this beforehand was all in my head. And so it just felt so trapped in there. And so being kind of almost forced, you know, in certain ways to like write it all down and to get it out. and then re-look at it and have someone else look at it was like, like it definitely felt different to get it out and process it that way. And realizing, you know, how much of this was really rooted in a lack of self-trust and like

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: a lack of being able to even know what I'm feeling, let alone trust how I'm feeling. And... That's still something that I'm 100 % working on. But I think going through the work that I did with you, that's stuck with me a lot of how much of my upbringing affected my ability to trust myself. Because growing up in the church, it's very explicitly, at least the way I was raised, was taught that like... To trust yourself, especially over trusting God or the Bible, is a sin. Like you don't trust, like there's a verse about like leaning on your own understanding and so it's very much frowned upon to like trust your feelings, trust yourself, especially if they don't somehow align with the Bible or God that's a sin. And so... I learned from a very young age to not tune into that at all and to even if I did feel something, that was probably wrong. So don't go with that. And of course, like your sexuality really is so much like leaning into what your body is telling you and how you feel. And I wasn't able to do that at all. And then, and even further than that, wasn't able to even recognize that I wasn't doing it. You know, was like so blind to it completely. So disconnected from it. And so that's like, so much of this last year for me has been attempting to slowly chip away at like being able to recognize how I'm feeling and then trust that. And it's still so hard, but that was, think a lot of the work that we did together was honestly that. was just like

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: trusting how I was feeling. And that was so, I was so intellectualized that I couldn't tap into that. It was really hard for me.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah, no, I remember that and I remember the gaslighting and the self gaslighting, you know,

Morgan: Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Fox: and it was really just so hard to trust yourself. And then I think that's when you shared kind of the history of where that comes from, which again left me just like honestly, I think I was like

Morgan: I you were like blown away. Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Crying. I mean, even when you talk about it now, it makes me want to cry. it's basically like taking away your humanity from like the earliest moment. Like, like, why does anybody have the right to do that? It's so wrong. Like, it impacted me so much when you shared

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: some of these things, like, I can't remember, but it was like something about, you know, something about like it, like if God, if God says it, like you have to just listen to whatever God says and not listen to yourself. Like listening to yours

Morgan: yeah.

Samantha Fox: listening to yourself above listening to God is like a total sin. Yeah. And

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: I was just like, my God, like, and it kind of hit me because not only was I working with you, but then I just imagined like. all of the people that are you know in the community you were in or you know worldwide even in this kind of religion and it just was like devastating i mean

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: because the reason we have emotions is so that we can function in life like our emotions are meant to be felt that's how we move through life is by processing them so by basically training however many

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: people, millions of people, to not trust themselves. It's like the deepest form of control. And

Morgan: Yeah, total.

Samantha Fox: it just impacted me, like the way you described it impacted me like no one else has. Yeah.

Morgan: Mm. Yeah, it's wild to see someone else have that experience because for me it's so normalized, but to be like, yeah, that is bad. You know, like you, it's hard. I'm getting closer to like to realizing how much it's impacted me, I guess is what I'm saying. But seeing someone who didn't grow up in that. see the outward impact of it as like, wow, yeah, you're right, that is really like impactful and really hard.

Samantha Fox: It's like damaging. I mean it's it's it's

Morgan: 100, yeah.

Samantha Fox: it should be like a criminal offense, honestly. Like I I feel like it's like a criminal offense. I mean there's no world in which this is okay.

Morgan: Yeah, it's definitely like, especially when it happens so young, I think it impacts the way that your brain is wired, you the way that you move through the world from so young means that I'll probably be dealing with that, like, you the impacts of it my whole life. And

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: yeah, it's still, it's hard, it's nuanced because of course, So many of the people in it are also impacted by it. They were raised in it. They don't know. A lot of them have good intentions, but then there's all this harm being done. And of course, some of them don't have good intentions, But it's just, yeah, it's so, I think it's good to recognize the harm that it's caused and like... be able to do that. So that's in the past, that was hard for me to be able to say. also like, I feel grateful when I do meet other people who grew up the way I feel very connected to, especially other queer people who were raised religious, which is very common, know? Like I feel like I can really get someone like that because there are so many impacts of it that are like, just, if you haven't been through it, it's hard to fully articulate to someone like how deep that goes, you know? But yeah, so that's where I feel like a lot of our work was around that. And also, you know, all of the internalized homophobia and misogyny and all of those things that were really good to like bring to more of like my awareness because I wasn't aware of like how much a lot of those things were impacting my ability to. even like know myself and like my sexuality and who I was. And so I got to a point, I think in November is when I, had, was one of the times I remember we were working together. I had coffee earlier in the day with someone I grew up with who is also queer and like had this really interesting conversation with them. And then I worked with you and it was one of the days that we were like, I was like listing out. all of these different things, I think from like the lesbian master doc. I was like listing them all out and rereading them. And something about that day, I was like, okay, so I that's that is what it is. Like, that's crazy. I can't unread that now. And it just, it hit me in a way where I was like, I think I have like my answer. Like I for so long, I was feeling like there's no way to answer this for myself. Like there's no way I'm ever gonna know. Especially cause I hadn't, you know, I hadn't been with a woman. So I was like, how can I know? And I had already up to this point, I guess I forgot to say this earlier, but like from starting the By Life group and meeting some other women who had similar experiences were for a little further along. I had been introduced to the idea of ethical non-monogamy and had brought it up. to my husband as like, at the time, not something I was asking to do or even interested in. It was very taboo for me still, but I was like, huh, this is an interesting thing that somebody, know, a way that they've navigated this and like, what do you think about that? And at the time when I first brought it up, was not resistant to the conversation, but he was like, that's interesting. That's not for me, but interesting. And then we kind of left it. And then like a week after that, he came to me on his own and was like, hey, I've been thinking about that. I actually think like, depending on the situation, like I would be more open to talking about that. And I was like shocked, cause it's, I was just shocked. I was like, okay. And so we had been having conversations about, those conversations were slowly growing as I was kind of slowly coming out to. be like, okay, I think we are gonna try opening with a relationship. But at first it was like, maybe it's just for me to explore. And then it was like, okay, well, maybe it'll be on both sides. And then maybe like, it was kind of evolving. And at the time, right before I, the day that I was describing is when we had been like, in a phase of being like, okay, well, if we do open the relationship, because we were trying to really like go about it very intentionally and. talk about it a lot beforehand, go to therapy, like we didn't want to rush into anything. And we were like, in a phase of questioning, does this mean that we're going to just kind of keep our relationship pretty similar, but open it up? Or are we going to be like, if I'm a lesbian, then we'll probably, we're going to be platonic. Like we're not going to continue with a physical relationship. So that night I wound up sitting down with him and like talking to him about what I had been working through with you. and said the words out loud to him, like, I think I'm a lesbian. And even then I was very much like couching it. It was still really scary to say. It still didn't feel like it could be real, but I said it and it was, he was so supportive, but it was really emotional. It was like, okay, like this is real. Like what is this gonna mean? And this probably means we're platonic. And for him, of course, that comes with even more different feelings and more grief. in certain ways than it did for me. But he was so safe and so supportive to say that to, and I was really, really grateful for that. And he always made me feel like we could figure it, like whatever it was gonna be, we were gonna figure it out together. so I think even like the... two days after I think I talked to you again, I was like, maybe not. Like, I don't know. I was still like in a phase where I was like back and forth with it, you know?

Samantha Fox: I remember.

Morgan: But not that long after I had that moment with him is when I met a lot of the friends that I have now that are like my queer group of friends. And I shared with them, like when I first met them at this thing was like, I came out to my husband last week. Like it was this whole thing that was like when I first met them and I was still working with you and in the group, but meeting these people in person was like a huge aspect of this journey for me and I know you had talked about that a lot of like a huge part of this is meeting community. And for so long that felt so out of reach. Like I live in a big city, I live in San Diego, but still I was like, how am I going to meet queer people? And like, I felt so imposter syndrome, like how am I just going to... insert myself into this community when I don't feel like I have the credentials and I don't know how to move in that space and like it felt so intimidating.

Samantha Fox: Remember.

Morgan: But I am so grateful I met a lot of amazing people that a lot of my friends now are like also late in life or you know around my age but later in life to coming out and have also been with men before, so it feels like a very safe space to be who I am and not feel, and even with now, a lot of queer people that I've met that don't have my same story. Like I've never had an in-person interaction that feels judgmental in any way. Like most people are very interested and like even if we're not a match for like dating or something, like they're very open to my story. And I was really scared of that before.

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: But meeting those people at that time especially was so crucial for me, because it was like, have people that get me that I can share with. And I think that kind of started a transition for me of like, I was still working with you, but I was able to like really dive into that in-person community to get me through a lot of the transitions that I was going through at home. And we wound up moving forward with opening our relationship and we're working with a queer therapist who we both really love and it's been, you know, a roller coaster journey. There's been a lot of ups and downs with it for sure. It's, think anytime you're transitioning a relationship that has a lot of history, it's gonna come with a lot of growing pains and also like just dating in general comes with a lot of ups and downs. So, and I have kids, like there's so much that has gone into that, but, you know, I was able to have some experiences that really validated for me, like, okay, yeah, this is who I am. But also even more than the experiences themselves, it was like being in that community, like, no, these are my people. And I

Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm.

Morgan: slowly over time have just felt like, more and more myself. And I'm so grateful to have a partner who's so dedicated, just to me as a human being. And I really do have that connection with him as a friend, where I'm like, I think for so long, a lot of my fear around coming out was like, I'm gonna blow my life up. It's never gonna be the same. I'm gonna get divorced, like I can't do that. Like it was just too terrifying for me. And I'm at a point now, I think kind of deconstructing some of the monogamous and like just a lot of the societal conditioning around relationships. I've had to deconstruct a little bit in order to be in this relationship that I'm in now. And I think a really cool thing that's come out of it is realizing like, There's just this piece of paper that so many of us rely on as like our safety net of like, this is, know my future is certain because of this thing that I did however many years ago and signed this paper. And I know you and I talked a lot about like leaning into like, can I be okay with the uncertainty and make a decision that feels good for right now, even with the future being uncertain? And that was terrifying for me.

Samantha Fox: I remember, yeah.

Morgan: It still is, like I still don't like uncertainty.

Samantha Fox: Nobody likes uncertainty. Yeah, it's uncomfortable, but

Morgan: No one likes it, but that's been my goal in life, but especially for this year is like, can I get more and more comfortable with a little more uncertainty and not feel, think growing up in such a black and white religious culture, it's very much like, it's like extra scary to be uncertain and extra,

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: almost feels like I'm doing something wrong. If I'm moving

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: in uncertainty, like there's a shame attached to it. And so trying to let go of like, hey, if I make a decision now that I then don't align with anymore later, that doesn't mean that I was bad or wrong. That's just, I changed my mind and that can be okay.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah.

Morgan: And you, I hear your voice in my head with that a lot. And that was really, like, it's really impactful for me because I think that's, that like really paralyzed me for so long. of just like, have to know that the future is going to be okay if I'm going to make decisions.

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: And I do think I've gotten to a point where now it's like every day is a choice to be together. And it's a choice. So at any time, if that doesn't feel right, that choice might change. Right now, that's not what I want. and I still know like if we chose not to be together in the way that we are now, like there would be a lot of grief with that because we've built a lot of history together, but it doesn't carry the same level of, like the weight of the fear that it did before. I think

Samantha Fox: Yeah, so good.

Morgan: I have more trust that like, if that was a decision we made, it would probably be a decision we made in our both of our best interests. And like, we've built enough of our own individuality this last year of our own lives and our own experiences and our own friends that we never used to, we were so like enmeshed before that. Now I'm like, okay, like it would be hard, but we would be okay. And, and I'm grateful that, you know, because he is so supportive and I really have like so much positive regard for him. don't, I'm not afraid that he, you know, I am a stay at home mom. There's a lot of things about my life that I have, I have a lot of reliance on him because of the way we were like building our life in a very a like heteronormative way before that you know someday maybe I'll have a different situation with my own career but right now I do have to have a lot of like trust in him for his like support of me and my family and I'm just grateful that like he is the kind of person that I trust that isn't going you know I'm just saying I get in other people's situations if you don't have a partner who is as trustworthy. That

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: might not be something that you would feel, but I'm grateful that I have like that trust there as the foundation. I think that's the way we've been able to make this work, even though it's for sure come with a lot of hard things.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Trust and f and the friendship piece. I mean, that always

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: stood out to me. You know, I wor I've worked with so many people, obviously, and also have had my own experience. And the friendship you guys have is like so huge and so loving and so respectful and so reciprocal and so open and Deeply moving to be watching, you know, how you

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: guys navigated something so hard,

Morgan: Yeah, I think one of the, in our case, maybe kind of rarely, but in our case, a positive of being together so young is that we did grow up together and built that friendship from such a young age that we have such a deep understanding of each other and like love for each other as human beings that it really, that's why it was like when I was coming out, I was like, this is like, Still he is so much like my life partner, you know, like I still love him so much And so that was part of the confusion for me at the time was like I still love him so much How could I be you know, it just felt like how could this be true?

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: But being able to be like, okay This can still be true and I can still love him and I think a cool Experience I've been having more recently with it because for a while I was like what does our relationship even look like now like What is it actually like if we're taking certain things off the table? Like how does this even how does our relationship even work now? And I've been able to really like incorporate him into some of my really close friendships in a way that has given me like a new. Recently, I've been feeling like a new perspective on him as the way I would like one of my best girl friends. And the amount of effort and care and intention that I put into my friendships is really high. I really value my friendships. And I almost, think I romanticize my friendships. Like I really view them as such an important thing in my life. And I was realizing for a while, like, I don't know if I was viewing him and I's friendship that way, because you know, all the things we've been through. And I think recently I've been able to like... put a little bit more of thought into that of like how I want to show up in our friendship and think about it kind of in a different light. And it's given me like a new energy around it that I'm feeling excited about to be able to like just still have parts of our friendship that feel so fun and like not sad. You know, some of it has felt sad. It really has. But like some parts of it are still so fun for me. And like he's still such a cool person and I'm trying to lean into still continuing to build that friendship even though there's parts of it that feel different and we're still processing that and working through it. And so that's been kind of like a more recent development, I guess you could say in our relationship, yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, I mean, I love that. I love that because also it's kind of like with any relationship to be able to continually approach, even though you guys have known each other now for so long and from so l young and you kind of probably know like almost everything about each other, but yet

Morgan: her.

Samantha Fox: you're able to take this lens of like, well, maybe I don't know some things about him and I'm gonna integrate him in this way. And then you made space to like see him in a new light. So it's it's like practicing that curiosity muscle and leaving space for people to not just always be who they've always been, who you've always known that they are, and that's what they are. And just kind of putting them into that box. Like this is who they are, this is what they are. But being

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: able to take him out of it and be like, Hey, like hang out over here. Let's see,

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: let's see what this is like, you know?

Morgan: Enough.

Samantha Fox: And then it was like, this is good. You're I like you in this context, you know?

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: which is space for him to grow and for you to grow and the relationship to grow and change. So I love that.

Morgan: Yeah, yeah, and I think it's, yeah, it's beautiful. I'm grateful for it. I'm trying to still lean into like, we don't know what's going to happen in the future and that's okay. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, but n yeah, because nobody does. Like nobody. When you say it's a choice every day, each person has to make that choice every day. Even if that choice is for a lot of couples that don't think about it this way, the choice that they're making each day is to not make a choice. That's their choice. So in other words,

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: like every day they're making a choice. To not look at things, to not try to work on the relationship, to not pay attention to all the problems they have. That's a choice they're making. So, if one person keeps doing that and the other person is like, wait a sec, like, you know what? I want to start looking at this and the other person doesn't want to, that's when all the friction starts, right? But if you have two people who just don't want to look at anything, well, they can go on. For there's a there could be a a lifetime of certainty as long as they both stay blindfolded and like underground for their whole life. A life

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: but it's not particularly fulfilling, you know. So, right?

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: So, this is a really intentional, conscious way of being in a relationship, which is each day we're choosing this and we'll see what happens, you know, and we'll keep communicating and keep talking about it, which I mean that's like All we can do. That's the most we

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: can do.

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, yeah, it's like, think being in some sort of like poly relationship forces you to do a lot of self examination and communication in a way that, like you said, you're not inherently forced to do in a more monogamous context. And so I am grateful for that, because I think regardless of where we end up, I'm grateful to have done a lot of that examination, because I think it impacts the way that you see all of your relationships, no matter,

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: because, yeah, you just have to move more intentionally. so as I'm now in a space where I'm dating more intentionally now, and, you know, we're both dating, but I'm kind of in a phase where I'm more looking for a more serious partner. I think it's been good for me to just like, I've had to examine a lot of what I'm still figuring out what that's going to look like. But like what I want out of partnerships and stuff is something that I've had to think about a lot this past year. And yeah, I also recently like came out to my parents and I'm in there. Yeah, that was huge. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to bring this up. I wanted to bring this up because this was another one of the things when we worked together. this was a year ago that the work started. So all of this has happened in literally one year of life, which is huge. So your

Morgan: Crazy.

Samantha Fox: parents were like, never. Samantha, I'm never gonna be able to come out to my parents or my family. Like it's not a possibility. It's not gonna

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: happen. And you have come out to your parents.

Morgan: have. It's pretty recent. Yeah, it didn't happen exactly the way I expected, And you know, my family is still very religious. And so I, I knew that it was going to be a lot for them. And it was, and it is. But I think I knew that From the beginning, was like, I'm not coming out to them until I get to a point where I feel like I have the community that I'm supported by that's outside of them. Because for so long after leaving the church, was like my family, we all live near each other. That was my only community for so long. So I really relied on them for just my emotional support, so much support. So I think over this past year, I've been really intentionally leaning into my queer community and my other friends. And I've had to like, just kind of distance myself emotionally in certain ways from my family in order to build up enough strength and safety to be ready to come out to them. And I got to a point. a little bit earlier this year where I was like, you know what, think I'm kind of, getting there. Like, I think that I have this group of people who love me and I feel like safe with and supported by, and I was realizing like that there had been a shift in the way that I, like, of course I still love my family, but I just wasn't looking to them as much for their support and approval the way I used to. And... So when I did come out to my parents, was really, it was hard, you know, like they, they have their views on it and it's, it's not, they're very much like love the sinner, hate the sin, Christian vibe. So it's a tough conversation, but I was really proud of myself with the way I was able to stand up for myself in a way that I probably have never really done with them and set boundaries around like. certain things that they were saying, I was just able to be like, hey, I'm not, we're not doing that, or I'm not open to that, we're not gonna talk about this anymore. And yeah, I felt, it was hard and emotional, but like, I was really proud of myself after it because I could not have done that a year ago, totally. And I'm still in the thick of it in that way, I think, because there's still a lot of family members I'd like to share with. But getting through that, I feel like even though I'm, I'm still going through it. I'm like, I know that I can do it. And I'm so grateful to feel like I have people in my corner that regardless of their reaction, like I'm gonna be okay. And I have people who love me. I, yeah, I just couldn't imagine getting to that point last year. And I'm so grateful that like, I can't believe it's happened in less than a year from then. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, I mean really, yeah. It's it's truly s I mean, your story is such an amazing story, which is why I really wanted you to share it.

Morgan: Thank you.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. So big. Like what a year.

Morgan: Wow, what a whirlwind. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yes, yes, but wow, I mean, I feel like you can go to therapy for so many years. and you go once a week for years and you can't get what happened for you in a year. granted you were ready, you were terrified, but also, your system was ready, your emotional system was ready, your body

Morgan: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: was ready, but your mind was not agreeing with any of it. And I think

Morgan: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: doing the work that we did helped your mind to get on board more with your body.

Morgan: Yeah, I think it was all just like the perfect storm of circumstances for me of like getting to a point of there were like, of course this has happened in a year, but there were a lot of years before that that led up to it that I think primed me to be ready for it. Like you were saying, because it really is true that like if I had tried to do that at any other time when I wasn't ready, like it wouldn't have happened like that. You know, I had to be at my own time with it and I am so grateful for you because truly, just never felt like I was looking for something like your program and like working with you for so long without really knowing what I was looking for. And I was just always like, I feel like I need help through this. Like I didn't feel like I could do it on my own. I just didn't have a roadmap. I didn't know what that would look like. And again, yeah, I was in therapy for years and nothing was. nothing was moving forward. It was just stagnant for so long in that area at least. that's why it was so exciting. Cause it was like, I'm making, I felt the progress happening. I was like, something is happening and it's not taking years and years. Like I'm able to face this and I'm with somebody who's like guiding me through it in a way that feels like authentic and you know, it felt right. And So I'm really grateful because if I hadn't had that kind of launching with you, I would never be where I am now. And I think also like going from that into like in-person community, like those two things together really is what I think made this year happen. And I have some really close friends now that I feel like something that I, that's actually interesting that comes to my mind about that like feels connected to like the religious stuff is growing up they talk like in religion they talk a lot about how you have to do life in community in order to like grow and I think that even though I don't resonate with a lot of religious things anymore like I do think they have that part right like I think that's true that like we can't we're not like in our individualistic society like we can't do it all on our own. And there was a lot of growth I could do kind of somewhat on my own, but having these friendships that I feel like I can be safe in and share these things and just experience new things in life with has been so healing for me. And when we talk about learning to feel things in my body and trust it, some of these closest friendships have been the biggest impact for that for me of like... actually having experiences with them and doing like practicing those things. so being able to start the work with you and like have that community online, which was huge too. Like even if it wasn't in person, think online that's one saving grace of like the internet is being able to connect with people before you have that in-person community. And I wouldn't have ever found the in-person community if I didn't have that first. And so like I needed all of those stepping stones to get here. And I'm so grateful, like whatever is it out there in the universe, who knows, but like that really was like it had to happen exactly that way, I think. And I'm grateful for that. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. when you reached out and you were like, I think it's a year since I joined and I was like, my God, you're right. Like, let's catch up. What is happening? And then you shared and I was just

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: like, my God, this is amazing. really, I mean just amazing in a year. Twelve months. I think you said to me when we talked about it, you said, Well, I still have like so much To go, like, you know, and I'm like, yeah, that's like that's life. It's life. Like, do that forever.

Morgan: Yeah. That's why. Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Hopefully you'll keep learning and keep growing.

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: And you're always, hopefully, if you're alive, gonna have a lot more to do, you know.

Morgan: Yeah, totally.

Samantha Fox: but like, but so worth just taking a look at what you've done and just how much you've come into yourself in all of these ways and what a gift that is to yourself, after really being like I say, this thing about the religion again, I feel like if you're an adult and you're fully in your adulthood and you've got choices and you make a choice to

Morgan: Huh.

Samantha Fox: enter into a religion where it's

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: black and white, good and bad, right and wrong, like all the stuff. That's very different than from the beginning of time being taught that because that that doesn't give you a chance to even ever know yourself. So considering

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: where you came from and what you learned or didn't learn or were terrified to know about yourself because it would be so wrong to where you are now is

Morgan: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: unbelievable in my book, unbelievable.

Morgan: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it is even to me. Like, I think I've told when I was coming out to my dad, that got brought up of just like the difference between someone like him who converted into Christianity as an adult. And then for me, like being raised in that and the impacts that that has on like a child is a very different thing.

Samantha Fox: Totally.

Morgan: And so, yeah, I think. over time just realizing the impacts that that's had on me. And of course, there's probably some positives mixed in there, but there's a lot of hard stuff all over top

Samantha Fox: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Morgan: of whatever that is. so I am really grateful to feel like I've been able to make the progress that I've had. I'm grateful to feel getting to a point of releasing some of that. I think a lot of the conditioning comes with a lot of shame. that's where I've like, led from a lot. And so I think getting, trying to get to more of a place of like accepting, like you were saying, the fact that life is just a constant work and like learning and that's okay. That I still have, that I've done work, I still have work, I'm not perfect. And we talked a lot about that in our work together and like,

Samantha Fox: Perfection, yes.

Morgan: I can, and... that can be okay and I can exist where I'm at now and I'm sure Morgan in five years will look at Morgan now and be like, wow, there was a lot you still had to learn and that's okay. That's like you said, like if I'm not feeling that way, then that means I haven't grown and that would be sad. Like that's not what I want. So yeah.

Samantha Fox: Exactly. Even at my age, I'm still, you know, hopefully looking back at the year and being like, Okay, like, you know, what didn't I know then that I now know today? You know, it's it's just ongoing. That's what we're here to do.

Morgan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I... It's interesting to, like, you know, be in that space I think part of it is also being like, that's what I want out of other people that I surround myself with, you know, as other people who are not perfect but are constantly, like, open to learning and growing.

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Morgan: And... That's like a factor of or an impact of doing that work together has been realizing how important that is to me is other people who are also doing some aspect of that work on themselves. Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. It's attractive. Yeah. So if you were to, you know, send a message to a woman that is where you were, let's say like two years ago, when you f found

Morgan: Oof.

Samantha Fox: when you found my content and you were just like, that feels really real. You know, I'm gonna not watch anything for a while. Okay, I'm gonna take a peek back in, I'm gonna pop back out. That's just really feeling like, wow, like you know, my life is gonna blow up and I can't handle this what advice or what would you say to her today from where you

Morgan: I'm out.

Samantha Fox: are?

Morgan: Good question. I think it's hard because I know how much of it really is like, like I said before, like your own timing is so important. And I think that nobody can be rushed to be ready to face it if you're not ready to. And so I have a lot of compassion for my old self and for anyone who's in that situation. And I also think a lot of the fear is, at least for me, was like, that fear of just like the uncertainty of what would happen if I stepped into it and that maybe I would be risked, like it just felt so risky and so scary. But I would just say that like, it's, I think that if you're, at least for my previous self, I think the reason why I had so. much fear around it was because I knew it was true. Like I knew there was something in me that recognized it and just wasn't ready. And so I think that if you're feeling that way, that could be like a sign that there's something there too. And when you are ready, I think that it only gets better when you're able to confront it. And I think that that... that fear would have continued to stay there if I wasn't able to confront it and it was draining. being on the other side of it, there's still uncertainty, but it was less scary than I thought. know, my life didn't just, even if I had gotten divorced, it wasn't like my life just imploded immediately and I had no control anymore. Like I did have more control over... the way that I went through the process, then I felt like I would. And I feel like now I, for the first time, I am my authentic self and that I am myself for the first time. And that really is like such a freeing feeling that it's worth going through the scary part of confronting it. And I think... I watched a movie recently, I don't know, it was a very gay movie called Camp Miasma. I don't know if you saw it, but loved it.

Samantha Fox: I saw it. I saw it. Yeah.

Morgan: There's that line in the movie that's like, if it gets too real, you can always turn it off. And I don't know why just thought of that, but I kind of felt like that. And I needed that safety of like, I can step into it a little bit and if it gets too scary, I can turn it off a little bit. And I needed those years of stepping in and stepping out to get to a point where I was ready to fully step in. And so I think

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: there's no shame in like, Allowing yourself that space to take your time and I would just think I say that like if you can find like One or two even like close people in person or someone online that you can trust Having people around you to like share things with Makes it so much to me made it so much easier to to get ready to fully step into it and So whether that's like online or in person I For me, think that's the biggest, having safe people around you that makes a huge difference.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, like not being in isolation, essentially. Not not being alone.

Morgan: Yeah, and I know that that's sometimes easier said than done for a lot of people. And that's why something like, even if I think I was afraid to confront your content, because I was like, that'll just mean like I'll like fall into it basically, and I can't get out. But even just

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: like reaching out to someone like you, it can be a very like low pressure, like I'm just going to talk to this person. And if I need to then step back out of it for a little bit, that's okay. But

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: Allowing yourself the opportunity to see what that feels like, I think, is worth it for your future self to not

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: feel so scared and trapped anymore.

Samantha Fox: Yes, yes. and I make that easy for people with a twenty minute free clarity call.

Morgan: for me, I had to start with Reddit threads. Like sometimes it was just like, I need to be anonymous in a space to just take in a little bit without feeling perceived here. And

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Morgan: that even just gave me enough of like, there's other people experiencing the same things as me. So like even these like baby steps, think the internet can give us, like, I have a lot of my own feelings about technology, but like, I think that that's one really cool part of it. And even if it's something like that, where it's like, you're not even talking to a person, you're just looking at people's stories, I think is worth like tiptoeing into it, if you're feeling that like, there's something kind of coming up for me around this. I think that's worth looking at. I mean, looking back and Morgan, it wouldn't have felt like a big deal if there wasn't, if you weren't gay. You know what I mean? Like I would have seen it and been like, that doesn't resonate. And like there was my friends who are straight, aren't having panic attacks about the lesbian creator. Like there's, that's just not happening. Right? So like,

Samantha Fox: Right. Right.

Morgan: not to say that it couldn't have been some other, you know, something on the spectrum for me, but like, There's something there if it's creating that really big feeling and it's worth looking at. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing with my listeners. I think your story's, again, just really so extraordinary in so many ways and and so deeply moved me. I learned a lot through working with you too. So that was

Morgan: No.

Samantha Fox: great for me. and yeah, I'm just so excited for you and and for where you are on your journey a year later. So thank you

Morgan: Thank you.

Samantha Fox: so much for coming on and and yeah, let's definitely Stay in touch. I'd love to see where you are next year at this time and what has changed.

Morgan: Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much for having me and for all the work you do. I really appreciate you so much.

Samantha Fox: Thank you for spending this time with me on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps more folks find these conversations. If you're ready to unbox from something that's keeping you stuck, I would love to support you. You can find the application to the show at unboxyoursexuality.com. Let's stay connected. Find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at lesbiancuriositycoach. Give me a follow and join the conversation. Remember, we only have this one time through. Why not unbox yourself and let your true self shine in all its beautiful glory?