Sparkly Codependence with Christine Vargo, LCSW

Samantha Fox: From day one, we are told who we should be, how to live, and what's acceptable. Before we even have a chance to discover ourselves, our society has already drawn those lines for us. But what happens when those lines are keeping us from knowing and embracing who we truly are? Welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, a podcast about unpacking and unlearning everything that's kept you from living as your true self. Through honest conversations about your internal emotional landscape, sexuality, coming out later in life, relationships, and the journey to self-acceptance, we break free from the boxes we never chose. On today's episode of Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox, I am joined by my friend and colleague, Christine Vargo. Christine works with queer women who are struggling with self-abandonment in relationships and runs a program called The Art of Staying. today we explore the topics of anger. And how anger can be difficult to access when you're in women loving women relationships and why, as well as self-abandonment, what that looks like, and what ways are to avoid abandoning oneself in relationship with another. I hope you enjoy the episode. Please leave comments if you do. It helps the podcast get sent out to more folks. Thank you for being here. welcome to Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. I'm so excited today to have my friend and colleague back, Christine Vargo, Hi, Christine.

Christine: Hi, it's great to be here again.

Samantha Fox: I wanted to have a conversation with you about this post that you had on Instagram that went completely viral. What was the impetus for that or what was behind that? What's the post about?

Christine: it was interesting because I was having a conversation with a client who was really wanting to be rooted in her anger. And I was like, Well, meet yourself where you are in that. That's great. Like, stay in your anger. Because she was like, I feel like, there's an expectation that I have more empathy or that I'm perspective taking around my ex and all the reasons. And it actually brought me back to a a memory of This woman that I dated when I first moved to New York, and when we broke up, one of the things that she pointed out to me was this thing that happens, often in women-loving women relationships, around the idea of getting to a place of empathy before you get through the anger. And If a woman is treating you the way that you are conditioned to believe a man is treating you, that's not okay. Then you're more likely to be very aware of like, man, I'm not, I'm not gonna do this with you because you're you're being inconsistent, you're being push pulley, this is hot and cold, you're being avoidant, you're being whatever. if it's a man, you can be more clear about it because the conditioning That all of us women are in, like we're swimming in it, right? So the post was like, hey, this is a thing that we don't talk about often, which is like if a man is treating you this way, it's so much clearer. If a woman's treating you this way, you're gonna bypass your anger more often than not. At least in my own experience, that's what's happened. And I am always perspective taking, I'm always more empathic. I'm always like, well, these are the things that she had going on. So that's why, you know, and so. yeah, it was really interesting to bring that out and to talk that through and say, I don't want to bypass my anger anymore and really get into contact with it and that's what I'm trying to teach my clients. So to also give it some context, I started my work in domestic violence and sexual violence, doing rape crisis work, doing domestic violence counseling. I could teach people all day long about the red flags that you see in like a heteronormative dynamic. But those red flags feel more orangey. In women loving women relationships, because of these dynamics, we're conditioned to be so externally focused as women. We're conditioned to have more empathy. We're conditioned to really take care. And we don't believe that another woman's gonna treat somebody poorly.

Samantha Fox: So what I'm hearing you say is when you're in a relationship with a man, the conditioning that we have around, what men are capable of and who men are, can lead to more like there could be a lot more anger accessed really easily around being treated shittily. if that's even a word from a man.

Christine: Right. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: and that when you're in a relationship with a woman who is treating you shittily, then what we're conditioned to believe is like women are good and women are kind and women are nice and women are pleasant and all of these things that we believe about a woman. So it's harder to get in touch with like, well that That's shitty. Like this

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: is a shitty thing to do. This is a shitty action, the shitty behavior, shitty treatment. And instead,

Christine: Right. Right.

Samantha Fox: we're kind of like, like maybe she's having a hard day, or maybe she has a lot of trauma from her past. And I can bypass this really mean way she just spoke to me because I know what she's going through, that we end up being like softer.

Christine: Yes.

Samantha Fox: toward women acting shittily is what I'm hearing you say. And

Christine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: and that your anger about being treated that way is very valid and that you need to get in touch with it.

Christine: Yes. And in order to heal. Otherwise you repeat the pattern, you repeat the self abandonment in the next relationship and that's what I said in the post. It's like if you don't give yourself the space to feel the anger towards this other person. It's not like I don't want I'm not inviting people to like stew in it and stay in it. But it's important to not totally intellectualize or compartmentalize or be completely pragmatic about it. It's like, yeah. Let's acknowledge that you hurt my feelings. Let's acknowledge that that's not okay. And I'm I'm gonna work through the feelings about that, the emotions that come with that. And that's gonna help me step more towards staying with myself in relationships versus abandoning.

Samantha Fox: Because I'm gonna have my own back. Okay. So there's something, what I'm hearing you say is that there's something about, you know, in the series of emotions that might come up for you in a not so pleasant interaction with your female partner, lots of different emotions might come up, but one of them that's really important to acknowledge is anger and to allow yourself to feel that, and that is part of the healing journey.

Christine: Yes.

Samantha Fox: And that without it, like without ever accessing that anger, that you are setting yourself up for more self abandonment in the future. If you don't allow

Christine: Yes. And I think

Samantha Fox: yourself to feel that. Okay.

Christine: yeah. And I think another another point to make is there's like acceptable forms of anger, which is like sporting events or traffic, right? We can be angry, we can like, you know, honk our horns and be pissed off. And that's like more socially acceptable. But when I talk about anger, I'm not talking about what I think a lot of women perceive As rage. And believe me, there's a lot of reasons women are rageful right now and definitely valid. And I'm right alongside them. there's a lot of rage that's happening now that we're seeing in society, and and women I think are just kind of Fucking over it to be honest. but what I'm talking about is like being able to access and say from a from an intentional place, from a like an effort to be curious with each other place of like this is the thing that hurt my feelings. Can you hold that for me? Can you not get defensive? Can you acknowledge that my feelings are hurt? can you apologize or can you let me know what you need? or I can let you know what I need with my hurt feelings to feel supported. and also moving and wanting to be in an interdependent space, recognizing that I'm not trying to make you responsible for my feelings.

Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm.

Christine: Just like I'm not responsible for yours. And so I

Samantha Fox: Mm-hmm.

Christine: think that's a huge shift that I think a lot of people really struggle with because again, women are conditioned. Unconsciously, we take care of people's feelings. I always say, like, we're pulling out chairs for people who aren't even in the room. And so when you try to take care of other people's feelings subconsciously to like stay attached, that's another form of self-abandonment. And I'm not asking you to be so rageful. I'm asking you to just hold my anger, and my anger is valid.

Samantha Fox: it's essentially like, I'm asking you to be able to, make a statement like it makes a lot of sense that you're feeling angry and that you're

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: feeling hurt. Like that, for example, could be a way that somebody holds it and validates it. So it doesn't have to be really complicated.

Christine: Right, not at all. conflicts are gonna happen in any dynamic, any relational dynamic, when people, you know, are doing the work. It's not about not triggering each other, it's not about not being angry ever at each other, it's about I I don't feel the same way that you feel in this moment. So I'm gonna get curious about that and understand what just happened. Like

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Christine: Clearly we had, you know, maybe we had this same experience, but our reactions or responses are different. So like let's get back on the same page about this. And I think that's really hard, really difficult for people to do, but it's not, you know, it's not impossible, but it's the work to do that, to repair that makes a huge difference.

Samantha Fox: So this post really resonated with people about, you know, needing the anger and needing to feel the anger and that the anger is valid. So in a way the post validated like, you know, hundred thousand women's anger, let's say,

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: for all that they've been through.

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: and this particular word is a word that I know a lot of your work is around, which is this talk of self-abandonment, and we hear that word, it's like a buzzword. We hear it in a lot of places. don't self-abandon, you know, or be careful not to self-abandon. And I wanted to say for my audience, this whole idea of self-abandonment, I think. is it's it's interesting, right? Because here we are, there's like all these women who have essentially lived a life more or less of self-abandonment because society has conditioned them to self-abandon. Like that is what you learn. You learn that like the way you're a good woman in this world is to abandon yourself. Right. So they've they've lived self-abandonment and they've partnered with a man, you know, all the while just not, you know, not being selfish and not taking care of themselves and taking care of everybody else and doing what society expects of them. And then All of a sudden they have this awakening and it could come with a catalyst, or it could just come, you know, over time somehow they have an awareness that they're actually same-sex attracted, and maybe in fact they're not even just bisexual, but they're actually gay. And they then have their first relationship with a woman. Which feels in so many ways like it is the very first time they have found themselves. It's like the opposite of self-abandonment. They are like they are connecting in ways, you know, physically and through pleasure and through, you know, sensuality. They're connecting in these ways that they never ever, ever even knew. existed. I mean, these are the words I hear over and over and I know because I lived it.

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: and yet, I did a post where I talked about women who are leaving heterosexual marriages and at the same time moving into woman loving woman relationships.

Christine: Hm, yeah.

Samantha Fox: So at the same time that you're trying to step out of a life you're stepping into a new everything, identity, relationship, and the post was really about the challenges of that, because that is challenging. You know, when there's no in-between period for a few years where you've steadied yourself in the world,

Christine: Uh-huh.

Samantha Fox: you're being swept from one life that you were conditioned to live and you've done it all and you've had the kids and blah, blah, blah. And now you're like, my God, you're in like the throes of all of the, oxytocin and all of the, you know, orgasms and, you know, all the amazing

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: sensuality and the the the the sensuality that you just didn't even know could exist and the connection and the deep emotional connection and the being with your best friend and being able to have sex with them too. And my God, right? So and

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Sorry to drag you.

Christine: Yep, I'm with you.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, sorry drag you through. I know you've lived through that too. I see it on your face. So,

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: yeah, so and how complicated this idea is that you're talking about of like this self-abandonment thing, because you know, it's it's so like stealth you can be f like coming into yourself in a million ways that you never have. And still be self-abandoning yourself at the same time.

Christine: Yes.

Samantha Fox: And so I think for later in life, women, this is like, I don't know, I think it's like probably an afterthought. I'm gonna admit for myself, it was definitely an afterthought. But when I did the thing I just talked about, and

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: you know, went Through that whole swing, straight, still married, went right into the other relationship, no break in between. It was only after everything ended that I had the space to look back and see: my God, like there was the this moment where I self-abandoned, and there was that moment where I self-abandoned. But if you had asked me while I was in it,

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: if I was self-abandoning, I would have told you. Yeah.

Christine: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's so stealth and it's so s like those little moments compounded over time is what eventually gets to a place of like creating awareness, right? If it's like a one off thing, it's like, you know, I did I went to the party and I didn't want to, right? Or I said, you know, I said yes to this thing and then it, you know, ultimately it was like, whatever. I know for me, I'm I'm neurodivergent. I struggle with interception, which is like the ability to know what's going on in your internal landscape. And so usually or what's been the my pattern, and I'm really trying to do a lot of work around this, is like I will not have this the felt sense of knowing I've abandoned myself until I'm at a level ten of resentment. And so the key thing of knowing that you've abandoned yourself is when you are in resentment. If you've said yes to something when you really need to say no to it. my attachment wounding, my abandonment wounding is where this all kind of stems from for me. And it could be different for other people. Absolutely. But even, you know, having childhood experiences where I was hanging out with people that were much older than me and not okay. and those moments of not being able to like use my voice, have my voice speak and say like this is a thing that is not okay. that trailed through my my whole life. And you know, I've made such like pivotal decisions in my life where ultimately I look back and I'm like, yeah, that was me fully abandoning myself. Like one example is like I was terrified to to become a mother. And my ex-wife really wanted to have a baby, really wanted like it was like all she talked about. And we were kind of trying to repair and we had we had broken up, we'd got back together. We were trying to like figure out our dynamic, and I wasn't so sure about our dynamic in a space to make a decision about having kids. And so for me, I also didn't want to be the reason she didn't have kids, as terrified as I was to become a mom. And you know, my whole life I I was like, I'm never gonna be a mom, never gonna be a mom, never gonna be a mom. And you know, she carried our First child, and then I was like, I think I actually want to do this. And then it flipped for me. But even while I was pregnant, I was like, is this happening? Like what? Like, it was so conflicted in my system. Because, I was making that decision from such an externally driven, people-pleasing, rescuing, overgiving place.

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Christine: And You know, I've had to do a lot of work to reckon with my own guilt about that, and I would walk through fire, literal fire for my kids. I would do anything for them. And they are absolutely the world to me. And I'm so grateful to my ex-wife for even entertaining the idea of having kids with me. and so we've come a really A really long way in that experience. We've been divorced for over 10 years now. and so for me, even in my most recent marriage, I look back and I notice these moments of, you know, I didn't ride my bike as often as I used to, right? I think I rode my bike like one time in four years. And we lived in like part of New York where there's a lot of cyclists. And I was like, I could totally get into this and like, you know, and I just didn't because I was like, I want to spend time with you. And it was that's the pull. It's like, especially if like if you get along so well and she's your best friend and you're just having all kinds of fun when you're not working or doing things to like bring in money or taking care of kids, you want to spend all your time together. And you know, and I think that that happens a lot in women love and women relationships. least that's that's been my experience. It's like, you know, I will bypass my own my own life goals. or I have, I won't now, but I have. And and ultimately the resentment starts to build and then you start to be like, wait, I've made this decision or I keep making this same decision.

Samantha Fox: Yep.

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. And that's where you've self abandoned. Yeah. So I guess yeah, so, here's this place where we land over and over.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: So

Christine: and let me tell you, like, so I I had asked my my kids when they were thirteen and fifteen, I believe. I was like, you know what, how would you define self abandonment? Just to see what they would say. And Skye at thirteen said, When you stop doing things you like, you stop being you. And Izzy at fifteen said, You stop taking care of yourself and you stop taking care of your needs. So I'm gonna call that a win

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Christine: for me that my thirteen and fifteen year old at least have an idea of what it means to to self abandon and that I'm

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Christine: like that they're my why for why I'm creating what I'm creating, the work that I'm doing. and so yeah, if they know,

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Christine: if they can embody that, I will be so happy.

Samantha Fox: it's beautiful, such young people to to understand and know what's needed and how

Christine: Mm.

Samantha Fox: we need to show up for ourselves and and take care of ourselves and take care of doing the things that move us and that give us energy, right? And fulfill our own needs. And when we get into these relationships, that have like their own like tsunami effect, I'm gonna say.

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: those things, get sort of like washed out, at least for a while, you know, because you're so enthralled with each other. so I guess I'm curious, like, you know How do you navigate being in that space and at the same time holding some sense of awareness that if you keep, going down this path of like choosing the us? And the we over the me repeatedly and not doing some of those things that you like to do, that it's essentially like gonna lead you apart. right?

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: And and so yeah, how do you navigate that? Because There's such a strong pull to do the together thing and to have that together time and to recreate that amazing romantic, you know, feeling that you've never had in your life and like all those things you just want. You want that twenty four seven. It's like a drug.

Christine: yeah, for sure. At least, you know, in my case it was like I had friends that were like, No nowhere for a season, like or for for a year, four all four seasons, right? And at the time I was like, Pfft, you can't tell me that. Like I am done. Like I'm I've found my person, like this is what's happening. I'm old enough now. I've done the twelve year marriage that didn't work out. I know why it didn't work, I've done a lot of work, you know, and you know, you couldn't tell me. I was just so like just high, really. And so

Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah. So like is there anything is there anything that like I mean I honestly like is there anything like is this a hindsight kind of thing, I guess is what I'm saying. yeah.

Christine: I well I think you know I think it it's a hindsight thing and what I'm actually trying to to create in the work that I'm doing is and I just finished one cohort first round of my course, which is called The Art of Staying, the Self Trust Method for Love That Doesn't Cost You Yourself. And so what I want to teach and and offer wisdom around and my own lived experiences with is like there is a way that you can not have it be a hindsight thing. There's a way that you can pace yourself, even though it's gonna feel really like like withdrawal,

Samantha Fox: Withdrawal. Yeah.

Christine: the pacing that naturally comes with heterosexual dynamic of like you kind of you know if you're a teenager you kind of have a crush on somebody and then your parents I think are good guardrails for how much time you can spend with that person. So you can't just be all encompassing, right? You

Samantha Fox: All in. Yep.

Christine: have like homework to do you have sports you have friends like they look for you to have the balance. And I think that that's something that parents are really useful for, right?

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah.

Christine: But if you spent your life in this like secrecy, in this invisibility, in this conditioning, in this sense that, like, okay, this love was never modeled for me. And as soon as I find it and I have somebody who can see me fully, my nervous system is gonna be like, hell yeah. And so part of it is let's take a step back and let's recognize. If I had recognized what was actually happening in my nervous system because I fully believed I was like, fully falling in love, like three days in. Right. And if I had taken a beat and listened to my friends who were like, can you slow down? Then I could have recognized like, this is actually not love. It's more like a limerence or it's more like lust. And if if I'm meant to be with this person, then I can pace myself and I can stay. And that's That's what I'm teaching in my course is like recognizing that it's it's a nervous system activation thing that happens initially. And if you're both kind of on the same page about that and you have clear communication about that, it's not like I it's not like I don't want to spend time with you, love. It's like I I really need to pace myself and I really need to focus on these other aspects of my life and not bury them because I'm so excited to see you. So it's the communication in that, it's the like awareness of that, it's you know, the practice of that. and then trusting when things kind of settle. It's like, you know, I use your quote all the time of like when two women come together and they're a match, the whole forest catches on fire, right? And which I love, and you gave that to me, and I use it all the time. And I also But it's like, you know, if you put two women together and they're a match, the whole force catches on fire. I've added

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Christine: to that and said, you know, when the when everything is ash and everything's slowed down and you you kind of look at the ground, you realize it's been built on sand. And there's no foundation. And

Samantha Fox: Yes. Yeah.

Christine: it's all like just unsteady and like Everyone was like so enamored with each other. And so then it's like, okay, what do we do with this? And so my my effort, my work with myself for the last year and change has been, okay, A, what the fuck happened? And B, what do I need to do to understand and actually teach the community there's a different way to approach a woman loving women relationship. where you can stay connected to yourself and not do whatever, you know, what the the stereotype tells us that we more often do, which is you haul and like tell each

Samantha Fox: Yes.

Christine: other you love each other on the third date and and then try to like sail off into the sunset. Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, I love that and I love that you're doing that work and also this is, you know, not just for later in life lesbians, but obviously all lesbians, the whole U-Haul thing is like a very long standing and granted like for reasons of expenses, it makes sense sometimes to just join households. But

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: you know, it's just interesting. to think about what a stereotype it is and also like what's behind that. And granted like

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: limerence is certainly behind that. And and also like what's behind this like this energy between two women. And I was just thinking about it in terms of what we were talking about early with earlier with the conditioning and, you know, with how women show up in the world and they're conditioned to be really pleasing and be really caretaking and, you know, be really selfless, and sacrifice themselves and and honestly like do that in a world where Well, what they've learned is that that makes them worthy and valuable, right? But not in a way where anyone is actually saying hey, you know, I see you and the way you're putting yourself and your needs to the side. To show up for me and the family, that is so kind. And I see that you're doing that and I appreciate you. And I hope one day I can return that right. There is like no seeing of this thing. All there is for women is like the feeling that they get that other people are comfortable and happy. Other people are

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: pleased with the way they're being in the world. So really they get like recognition through their value and worthiness. I'm thinking this out as I'm talking about it, but

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: they never get feedback about it, you know, or or someone might say, you're such a good daughter. You know, you've given up your

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: your whole life. You've given up your whole life to take care of your parents. I mean, they've moved into your home, you know, you took care of your kids, now you're taking care of your parents. Like, yeah, somebody might reinforce that selflessness by saying things like that, and then you feel like, I'm such a good woman. I'm such a good woman. But I

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: think when you're with two women. You know, this thing happens that doesn't happen any other time, which is you feel really seen. Like for the first time ever, you're like,

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: my god, like this is what it feels like when someone actually really sees me and knows me and is interested in me and is mirroring things about me back to me and like It's like something we're like starved of.

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: And I'm wondering if that along with the limerence, the limerence is more of like the uncertainty, right? Like I met this person, I'm not sure how they feel about me. Do they feel as crazy about me as I feel about them? But on top of that, getting this mirror. Like when the forest starts to light ablaze, it's like that height of this like mirroring of one another and like seeing one another. And it's like, my God, like I've lived a whole fucking lifetime of never being seen. And this is like

Christine: yeah.

Samantha Fox: I am like so high from this and we're it forever and let's get the you haul I'm just wondering if like that has something to do with it. I just thought of that now.

Christine: Yeah, absolutely. I think yeah, I I think I think it's definitely connected. I think I'm trying to think back to like my very first girlfriend. And one of the first things she said on our first date was like, we're like in different places. she was she's already graduated from college. I was still in college. We weren't totally mirroring each other in this way. And I think that's probably why we were able to pace as much as we did, and I didn't do this whole like you haul thing. Although we did move in together at like eight months. So it was less than it wasn't four four full

Samantha Fox: Okay.

Christine: seasons, but here we are. but yeah, so like in contrast to like my most recent relationship where like we started out, we were like saying the same thing with different words and I was just like, who was your therapist? Cause you're like talking how I talk and mirroring each other through and through. And I remember when we were unpacking the house and we moved in together. and I had put the honey where the tea is, you know, instead of like with other condiments. She

Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah.

Christine: was like, yes, like I didn't even have to explain that to you. I was like, yeah, of course the honey goes with the tea. And it's

Samantha Fox: I put my honey with my tea too.

Christine: Exactly. So it's like this unwritten dialogue. that happens and it's like kind of you just like see each other in these really small ways, but then you also see each other in really big ways and it's like, yeah. Like, so that I think is is, you know, that drives the enmeshment or the merging so quickly. I call it like sparkly codependence and just like recognizing that it it's so sparkly.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah, so sparkly. Yeah. I love that. It's a great term.

Christine: yeah. And so Just wanting to, you know, to not teach people to not fall in love and not like, you know, not give themselves permission to be vulnerable, put their hearts out and say, hey, here, hold my heart, and to risk that. I absolutely want people like everything comes from love. but what I've learned and what I understand through like attachment style, attachment wounding, like we activate our attachment wounding when we're attached to somebody, right? And so the attachment that can feel false right away is not actually your attachment wounding that is helping you feel attached. It's the merging or the limerence or the high on love and error and like the quickness of that. And so three and a half years in, you get to this place, or you you know, four years in, you get to this place and you're like, hey, the the the ground is sand. Where's our foundation? And B, now all my attachment shit is coming up and I don't know what to do with it. And I actually don't know you as well as I feel like I want to, and I don't feel safe, so this isn't gonna work.

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Christine: And I there's nobody to blame in that. It's just like the trajectory that in my research and what I've understood about, the clients that I'm dialing into my practice now and like how we're talking about things, it's like, yep, one is more avoidant, the other one's more anxious, push-pool dynamic. It kind of un unravels in this way. Then you get to, you know, you get people who either want to do that work or you get people who are like, yeah, I'm done. I can't do this. And I've been on both

Samantha Fox: Right.

Christine: sides of

Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Same. so I know you already led a cohort of women through all of this.

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: I think it would be cool to share a little bit about what your course offering is and how it's structured.

Christine: Yeah, absolutely. So the art of saying, it's for women who confuse intensity for chemistry, chase certainty instead of connection, abandon themselves to keep from losing someone else. there's also like, you know, we talk about limerence, we talk about anxious avoidant push-pull dynamics, self-abandonment, and so if this is like familiar, kind of resonating, it's six weeks it's one o'clock to two thirty Eastern on Thursdays. We're starting next Thursday, the twenty-ninth. I have a workbook that I'll give everyone before we start, and then the first week we talk about and we normalize and kind of dissipate the shame around self-abandonment, the belief that you're broken because you you've had this pattern in your life. we talk about really the limerence or like intensity not being intimacy and the difference between intensity and intimacy. Talk about self-abandonment as a creative adjustment or an adaptation to getting your needs met and like needing to get your needs met and why. And then we we go into like the last three weeks are around like what do we need to do to like develop a new practice. And so practicing self-trust and then you know naming your needs, what are you what understanding what your needs are, maybe even for the first time, expressing your needs to yourself, but also being able to meet your needs yourself. And then the next step to Getting your needs met is like being able to express them and then practice receiving. I think a lot of times, especially women are not conditioned to receive. And receiving is really fucking hard for so many of us because of that conditioning. Right.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, 'cause we're such givers. We're conditioned to be givers.

Christine: Conditioned to be givers. And then the last week is, you know, the art of staying, which is like. really talking through the the steps of like how do I pause, notice what's happening in my system before I respond to a request, I did a post, another post around like, do I interrupt my opinion because I see it on her face, that she is gonna disagree with it. That's another like stealth self-abandonment, right? And I don't want to like I want to stay attached to that. And so so I

Samantha Fox: Making yourself smaller.

Christine: making yourself smaller and then choosing choosing, you know, you pause before you chase, you choose reciprocity, and then you come back to yourself when you're activated. And ideally you are, you know, better prepared for the next relationship or even the relationship that you're in around staying connected to you.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's a skill, right? It's a skill. We we need to actually build that muscle and learn how to do that and

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: to not feel terrified that by doing that we're losing the other person, you know? And yeah.

Christine: Yeah. And it's it's you know it in the moments where I have I have chosen myself, you know, and this is where I think the the abandonment piece gets gets tricky or the like mm for me it's like rejection sensitivity. Like if I was taught and conditioned that like my feelings are too big and too too loud, and that's where I'm coming from. If I express my feelings or my needs, then The story I'm telling myself is that I'm going to be abandoned. But if you don't do that, you're still going to be abandoned.

Samantha Fox: Right. And then the way the way my brain goes is if you, exercise that muscle and take up that space and find that you were rejected,

Christine: Mm-hmm.

Samantha Fox: then that's information that you need to have to be able to determine whether or not this is a viable relationship for you.

Christine: Right. Right.

Samantha Fox: Right. So like with that terror and you know, not taking up the space and self-abandoning, you're never giving yourself the chance to

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: get the information to know whether or not you're in a viable relationship.

Christine: Right, exactly. Yeah. And that's the paradox. It's like, can I show up and and you can witness my messiness and you can hold my messiness and it's all information for you and it's all information for me about whether or not we're com you know, we're finding that we're a match. And that's it's so much More valuable in building self-trust and building and you know and kind of creating cultivating trust with the from the other person.

Samantha Fox: Yeah, yeah. And like also learning just, you know, what each one person needs because not everybody's the same. And in that

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: situation, you know, like it's possible your partner won't know what to do and won't know exactly how to respond if you had a different opinion. But then that gives them a chance to even say, like, you know, I'm not really sure how to respond, you know. I don't really know,

Christine: Yeah, yeah.

Samantha Fox: and then you get to have a conversation about it. as opposed to holding it in, never saying the thing, self abandoning, not getting the information as to whether or not your partner even knows how to communicate about differences. in my case I always think about things in terms of like women coming out later, you know, but it's

Christine: Yeah, absolutely.

Samantha Fox: yeah, it's like it's like you just went through a whole lifetime of living that with men, you know, whether you're partnered or married or just dating men.

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: don't go into dating women with that exact same set of skills. And like, of course you're going to because those are the only skills you have,

Christine: Right.

Samantha Fox: but like do the work. To get the skills to actually be with yourself. Right, after so many years of self-abandonment, because that's what what we learned was like the only way to basically survive. You definitely want to do the work to get the skills to learn how to not self-abandon. So such important work that you're doing. thank you for

Christine: Thank you.

Samantha Fox: making a space for women to, you know, really come into themselves in all the ways that they need to to take up space and and prioritize themselves first. And not abandon themselves.

Christine: Yeah, I mean it's you know, it's it's so interesting because I spent so much time, Samantha, like what is my niche? What is my niche? What is what am I supposed to be doing? I know I'm supposed to be living for, you know, changing the world in some way and and being impactful. I want my legacy to be X, Y, or Z. And, you know, even the earlier work that I was doing in in working with rape survivors and domestic violence victims, Survivors of gender based violence, And then I remember sitting and and remend reminding myself or reflecting of like how can I have such like conviction and passion in this arena and er so early on in my career, and then have this repeated pattern of self-abandonment throughout my life.

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Christine: And how do I how do I make those two kind of match? And Now I feel like I've I've found it.

Samantha Fox: Yeah.

Christine: Yeah.

Samantha Fox: Yeah. You needed to to live it to come out the other side and and really feel what you need to be offering to other people and to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I mean my work is born the same way, so I get it. Yeah.

Christine: There you go. They say, you know, your pr your purpose is your deepest wound.

Samantha Fox: Totally. Yes. That very much resonates. Well, till next time, because I know there will be a next time. Thank you. Thank you for

Christine: Yes.

Samantha Fox: sharing.

Christine: Thank you. It's been a it's a it's been a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Samantha Fox: Thank you for spending this time with me on Unbox Yourself with Samantha Fox. If this episode resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps more folks find these conversations. If you're ready to unbox from something that's keeping you stuck, I would love to support you. You can find the application to the show at unboxyoursexuality.com. Let's stay connected. Find me on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at lesbiancuriositycoach. Give me a follow and join the conversation. Remember, we only have this one time through. Why not unbox yourself and let your true self shine in all its beautiful glory?